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Flap System trouble shoot

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Thu Apr 21, 2011 9:54 pm Post subject: Flap System trouble shoot

What's wrong with this picture?



I'm trying to install an over-ride switch in conjunction with the Aircraft Extras Flap Positioning System



My flap motor is right up against the current limit of the AE FPS so I installed two 30A ice cube relays. On the relay, 12v+ and the motor terminals are NC. Pins 15 & 16 of the FPS are flaps up/down out to motor. The rocker at the top is the flap selector switch in to FPS.



The rocker at the bottom is the FPS circuit board over-ride switch.



Pins 15 & 16 are normally ground, except when there's a system flap input and either 15 or 16 goes to 12v+. I installed the diodes on the 15/16 to relay coil legs because I was getting a dead short  when the override switch was closed. 



I thought that the diodes would solve the problem, but I'm still blowing fuses whenever the override switch is closed.



Any suggestions much appreciated.



Thanks,

John

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Fri Apr 22, 2011 7:16 am Post subject: Flap System trouble shoot

At 01:54 AM 4/22/2011, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



What's wrong with this picture?



I'm trying to install an over-ride switch in conjunction with the 

Aircraft Extras Flap Positioning System



My flap motor is right up against the current limit of the AE FPS so 

I installed two 30A ice cube relays. On the relay, 12v+ and the 

motor terminals are NC. Pins 15 & 16 of the FPS are flaps up/down 

out to motor. The rocker at the top is the flap selector switch in to FPS.



The rocker at the bottom is the FPS circuit board over-ride switch.



Pins 15 & 16 are normally ground, except when there's a system flap 

input and either 15 or 16 goes to 12v+. I installed the diodes on 

the 15/16 to relay coil legs because I was getting a dead 

short  when the override switch was closed.



I thought that the diodes would solve the problem, but I'm still 

blowing fuses whenever the override switch is closed.



Any suggestions much appreciated.


	


    It would help if you could offer a schematic of

    the wiring as opposed to a pictorial. If you're

    using relays to separate the output of an existing

    control system from the motor, the I would expect

    the control system to drive relay coils and the

    motor would be powered from an alternative power

    source through relay contacts. In other words, there

    would be no exchange of energy between the control

    system and the motor . . . your drawing shows some

    wires that connect to motor . . . ?????

    The forth page of



http://www.aeroelectric.com/PPS/Flight/Flaps/Flaps.pdf



    illustrates a configuration of single-pole, double-

    throw relays used to accept inputs from a small

    switch for crew control of flaps. This same circuit

    with the switch removed would accept outputs from

    your flap control system.



    It would be helpful to know more about the flap

    control system. What's the 'current limit' issue

    all about. Normally, flap system draws are pretty

    benign, 10A or less. What is it about your particular

    flap configuration that makes it "oversized" for

    the control system. What is the design goal for

    an "override switch"?



    Can you point us to a link for the control system's

    installation manual?



    I would also encourage you to learn to draw in

    pure schematic form . . . it's the universal language

    of electrical systems behaviors. I once had to teach

    a group of Japanese technicians how to deal with

    some video equipment I designed. Their English was

    marginally useful, my Japanese was nil. But our mutual

    understanding of the schematics, video in general and

    the use of test equipment made a much lighter task

    of what could have been a no-value-added endeavor.

   Bob . . .

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 11:50 am Post subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot

Now in schematic form per Bob's suggestion. 

Aircraft Extras FPS-plus nt  schematic URL - http://www.aircraftextras.com/PDF-files/FPS-Plus-ntWebE.pdf



 	  Quote: 	
		  

It would be helpful to know more about the flap

control system. What's the 'current limit' issue

all about. Normally, flap system draws are pretty

benign, 10A or less. What is it about your particular

flap configuration that makes it "oversized" for

the control system. What is the design goal for

an "override switch"? 	




My flap motor draws 7.5 amps in a no load condition. The traces on the FPS-Plus board are good for 10 amps. My flap extension speed is 140mph and I was concerned that under load I would be near max. amperage of the FPS system. I opted for more margin on flap motor current draw.

The manual flap switch is per AE's suggestion. Should the board in the FPS system fry for whatever reason, I can bypass the system with the manual switch.



Per my original post, Pins 15 & 16 of the FPS are normally GRND. When the the FPS flap switch is depressed, the selected function goes to 12v+. I have diodes in the wires from 15 & 16 to the coils in an attempt to prevent the manual switch (12v+) from shorting to ground. But whenever I press the manual switch, the fuse blows.



I can't see why.



Any help appreciated.



John

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nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect
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Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 3:02 pm Post subject: Flap System trouble shoot

 	  Quote: 	
		  

My flap motor draws 7.5 amps in a no load condition. The traces on 

the FPS-Plus board are good for 10 amps. My flap extension speed is 

140mph and I was concerned that under load I would be near max. 

amperage of the FPS system. I opted for more margin on flap motor current draw.


	


    Hmmmm . . . that's a REALLY big, no load draw.

    Do you have any in-flight data on maximum draw?



 	  Quote: 	
		  The manual flap switch is per AE's suggestion. Should the board in 

the FPS system fry for whatever reason, I can bypass the system with 

the manual switch.


	


    What is the likelihood that having to make a no-flaps

    landing presents a hazardous condition?



 	  Quote: 	
		  Per my original post, Pins 15 & 16 of the FPS are normally GRND. 

When the the FPS flap switch is depressed, the selected function 

goes to 12v+. I have diodes in the wires from 15 & 16 to the coils 

in an attempt to prevent the manual switch (12v+) from shorting to 

ground. But whenever I press the manual switch, the fuse blows.



I can't see why.


	


    I can't see why either without a schematic

    that describes functionality of the compoents

    as-wired in your system.



    I can tell you that if wired per the figure I

    referenced in my last posting, the switch

    in the figure becomes the manual switch. Automatic

    commands could be tied in parallel with the manual

    switch if you include the diodes you've described

    to prevent back-flow into the grounded terminal

    on the ECB assembly.



    Are you sure your diodes are installed correclty?



    Bob . . .

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retasker(at)optonline.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 4:47 pm Post subject: Flap System trouble shoot

You don't say which fuse is blowing.  However, if everything is actually 

connected exactly like the schematic shows no fuse should blow.

I suggest you carefully go over the actual connections to make sure that 

everything is really connected as shown.  I have had enough times when I 

just knew that the connections were correct (of course they were 

correct, I wired them!).  Then when I examined everything more closely 

found something reversed or connected to the wrong pin.

Good luck.

Dick Tasker

jonlaury wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 Now in schematic form per Bob's suggestion.

 Aircraft Extras FPS-plus nt  schematic URL - http://www.aircraftextras.com/PDF-files/FPS-Plus-ntWebE.pdf

> It would be helpful to know more about the flap

> control system. What's the 'current limit' issue

> all about. Normally, flap system draws are pretty

> benign, 10A or less. What is it about your particular

> flap configuration that makes it "oversized" for

> the control system. What is the design goal for

> an "override switch"?

>      

 My flap motor draws 7.5 amps in a no load condition. The traces on the FPS-Plus board are good for 10 amps. My flap extension speed is 140mph and I was concerned that under load I would be near max. amperage of the FPS system. I opted for more margin on flap motor current draw.

 The manual flap switch is per AE's suggestion. Should the board in the FPS system fry for whatever reason, I can bypass the system with the manual switch.

 Per my original post, Pins 15&  16 of the FPS are normally GRND. When the the FPS flap switch is depressed, the selected function goes to 12v+. I have diodes in the wires from 15&  16 to the coils in an attempt to prevent the manual switch (12v+) from shorting to ground. But whenever I press the manual switch, the fuse blows.

 I can't see why.

 Any help appreciated.

 John

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Sun Apr 24, 2011 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot

 	  Quote: 	
		  Are you sure your diodes are installed correclty? 	




I'm pretty sure, without it being in front of me now.

The cathode (banded end) of the diode faces the coil of the relay.

And the FPS selector switch operates the FPS and flap motor in either direction as intended. If a diode was backward, then power would not flow from 15 or 16 to the relay coil. 

I also tested the diodes against a new one. They were identical. R is on the order of 1500 K ohms, voltage drop is about .54



Dick Tasker said:

 	  Quote: 	
		  You don't say which fuse is blowing. However, if everything is actually

connected exactly like the schematic shows no fuse should blow. 	




The 5a (actually 2a for testing) for the manual switch is the one that blows.



I will re-check everything next time I'm at the hangar.

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1908
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 5:59 am Post subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot

Make sure that the manual switch is connected to the hot side of the relay coils and not to the grounded side.  And make sure that the switch is wired correctly.

  Depending on the size of the relays, it is possible that high inrush current is blowing a 2 amp fuse.  Try a 5 amp.  Or substitute a small 12 volt light bulb for the fuse.  If 12 volts are dropped across the light bulb, then there is a short to ground someplace.

Joe

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_________________
Joe Gores

Tundra10

Joined: 14 Jun 2010
Posts: 102
Location: Scarborough, Ontario

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 7:12 am Post subject: Flap System trouble shoot

John,



If you have wired everything per your drawing, the fuse should not  

blow, so look first for a wiring error.



After you get that fixed, there are two changes I suggest.  In your  

diagram, it looks like you are using a double pole switch for the  

manual override.  So with the switch in neutral position, there is no  

ground to the relay coils.  This means the automatic controller cannot  

turn on the relays.  Just delete that half of the switch and ground  

that side of both relay coils to allow automatic control.



The other suggestion I have is to trade both the NC and NO connections  

on the relays.  As shown, when not energized, all the flap motor wires  

have +12V.  To energize, one of those wires is grounded.  Perhaps  

better is normally both wires grounded and when activated, one goes to  

+12V.  This way, if a wire shorts to the airframe, it would not  

normally have power in it.  Less likely to cause a fire ?  In effect,  

this reverses the operation of the relays, so you will need to switch  

the wires to the flap motor, so it turns in the same direction as it  

originally did.



Just to be sure, the switch you need is a single pole, double throw,  

center off momentary switch for manual flap activation.  If you  

already have a double pole version, one side can be left unwired.  The  

aeroelectric switch type is 1-7.



Looks like a nifty flap controller.  If I didn't have manual flaps, I  

would be really tempted to order one.



Jeff Page

Dream Aircraft Tundra #10



 	  Quote: 	
		   Time: 08:02:54 PM PST US

 Subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot

 From: "jonlaury" <jonlaury(at)impulse.net>



> Are you sure your diodes are installed correclty?

 I'm pretty sure, without it being in front of me now.

 The cathode (banded end) of the diode faces the coil of the relay.

 And the FPS selector switch operates the FPS and flap motor in  

 either direction

 as intended. If a diode was backward, then power would not flow from 15 or 16

 to the relay coil.

 I also tested the diodes against a new one. They were identical. R  

 is on the order

 of 1500 K ohms, voltage drop is about .54

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jonlaury

Joined: 06 Nov 2006
Posts: 336

Posted: Mon Apr 25, 2011 2:07 pm Post subject: Re: Flap System trouble shoot

Thank you all for your suggestions.



After pulling things apart and blowing a few more fuses, the thing started working as intended. I was pulling off a relay coil spike-catcher diode, to see if that would make a difference, and I inadvertently grounded the 14 ga + to the flap motor and blew the 15a fuse. When  I tried the FPS system, the flap motor wouldn't run but the manual switch was now activating the relays. Same for the FPS. I replaced the 15a fuse and s-c diode and everything works fine. I don't know what was causing the problem, but I suspect some errant strand of wire that was causing a dead short. Maybe the 15a got into it and vaporized it. In soldering the diodes into the wire legs, I wrap the splice with a single strand of fine wire to hold it in place while soldering. I suspect an errant piece of this was lying across a coil terminal to ground invisible to these far-sighted eyeballs. 



I also disassembled the flap motor from the worm-drive jack screw because of Bob's surprise at the 7.5a no-load draw. The motor by itself draws 2.4a. I thought that maybe the jack screw mechanism was gummed up with old hard dried-up grease so I disassembled it too. The grease was fresh and all parts turned easily. Back together the motor still draws 7a +/-. Just the nature of this beast.



The Aircraft Extras Flap Positioning System works really well and is a breeze to use. Highly recommended for those with electric flaps.



John

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