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Series 7 Stick Forces?

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darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

I just connected up my elevator and the stick forces are quite alarming (heavy)!  It is smooth but takes quite a bit of arm muscle to move it.  Is this normal?  My control column is smooth and does not bind on the bearing or the delrin brace so it must simply be the weight of the elevator.  I am used to the model III that was fairly light on the control.  What is the stick pull like while flying?  Anyone with a flying Series 7...does the amount of force required to pull back stick change significantly from static (on the ground) to flying?  I wonder why Skystar never designed counterbalances for this airplane...Maybe because the stick forces are just right in the flight regime...I don't know, this is why I am asking.  Any comments or thoughts are appreciated.



Darin

janderson412(at)hotmail.c
Guest

Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:34 pm Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Yes, mine seemed stiff too but to fly it's ok, don'y notice it being so. 

John A Series 5



From:  "darinh" <gerns25(at)netscape.net>

Reply-To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

To:  kitfox-list(at)matronics.com

Subject:  Series 7 Stick Forces?

Date:  Fri, 19 May 2006 22:57:28 -0700




I just connected up my elevator and the stick forces are quite alarming 

(heavy)!  It is smooth but takes quite a bit of arm muscle to move it.  Is 

this normal?  My control column is smooth and does not bind on the bearing 

or the delrin brace so it must simply be the weight of the elevator.  I am 

used to the model III that was fairly light on the control.  What is the 

stick pull like while flying?  Anyone with a flying Series 7...does the 

amount of force required to pull back stick change significantly from static 

(on the ground) to flying?  I wonder why Skystar never designed 

counterbalances for this airplane...Maybe because the stick forces are just 

right in the flight regime...I don't know, this is why I am asking.  Any 

comments or thoughts are appreciated.



Darin





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rdmac(at)swbell.net
Guest

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

My model 7 is the same way. The weight of the elevator is what you are

having to over come but in the air that goes away. The elevator will start

to 'come alive' as soon as the power comes up, and then be ready to fly.

	Roger Mac 



--

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Thanks guys, I guess I won't worry about it.



Darin

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 12:12 pm Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Hi Darin and all,



As the others have said, you probably have no elevator

problem.  It is just the normal weight.  But just to

check, here is something I learned from SkyStar while

building my S-5:



You should be able to raise the elevator to any point,

say to a level position, then let the stick go and the

elevator should drop all the way to the down stop.  It

doesnt have to bang down, just get there on its own.



If it stops before that, you have too much friction. 

If you have a friction problem, disconnect the

controls and find it.  Most likely the elevator hinges

will cause this.



On the other extreme, you should have no slack either.

 No movement of the stick without elevator movement

and there should be some slight friction to prevent

flutter.



As long as the controls are tight, but the elevator

drops on its own weight to the stop, you are good.



If all that is OK, the weight of the elevator itself

is no problem in flight and the Fox 7 should feel very

nice to you.  It will trim right up to hands free.



After flying a Cub, a Champ and a Citabria for

warmups, I found my S-5 flys embarrasingly well.  Kind

of like a fighter version of a Cessna 180 with a

stick.  It felt heavy and stable, yet a flick of the

wrist and it would go where I wanted it maybe twice as

fast as the Cessna could.  I was afraid to say this at

first for fear of losing friends with store-bought

planes.  Now I find they look OK green.  



Kurt S.



--- darinh <gerns25(at)netscape.net> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   I just connected up my elevator and the stick forces

 are quite alarming (heavy)!  It is smooth but takes

 quite a bit of arm muscle to move it.  Is this

 normal?  My control column is smooth and does not

 bind on the bearing or the delrin brace so it must

 simply be the weight of the elevator.  I am used to

 the model III that was fairly light on the control. 

 What is the stick pull like while flying?  Anyone

 with a flying Series 7...does the amount of force

 required to pull back stick change significantly

 from static (on the ground) to flying?  I wonder why

 Skystar never designed counterbalances for this

 airplane...Maybe because the stick forces are just

 right in the flight regime...I don't know, this is

 why I am asking.  Any comments or thoughts are

 appreciated.

 

 Darin


	


__________________________________________________

darinh

Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 327
Location: Utah

Posted: Sun May 21, 2006 6:18 pm Post subject: Re: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Kurt,



Thanks for the info.  My elevator reacts exactly as you have specified...no slop and the elevator falls nicely to the bottom of the movement on its own.  Thanks again,



Darin

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 7:19 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Darin and 5 plus pilots



	I have a series 5 with a Continental IO-240B4B doing the towing.

Both myself and my instructor find the stick force required to approach

at 65mph indicated and to flare to be quite high, and a true 3 point is

almost not possible, even with the stick in your stomach and the trim at

the up limit.  The more flap used, the worse this becomes.    

	My instructor has suggested that a stick extension be added to

reduce the force and overall sensitivity (he is also an accomplished

machinist).  I haven't wanted to do this as a modification to the sticks

I now have, but we may try this with a stick that is made from scratch,

and can fold so that entry and exit will still be possible.   At cruise,

the elevator force/response function is fine, and is very sensitive to

minor changes in trim.  

	We have also discussed gap sealing the elevator, as that gap is

quite large, and some benefit to elevator authority should result from

this, which is confirmed by some of the recent posts on the topic.  

The rudder gap is very small on mine, and quite clean as is, so I do not

see any reason to seal that one, which is very effective under all

reasonable speeds.  

The rudder gap is very small on mine, and quite clean as is, so I do not

see any reason to seal that one, which is very effective under all

reasonable speeds.  

The rudder gap is very small on mine, and quite clean as is, so I do not

see any reason to seal that one, which is very effective under all

reasonable speeds.  

	My opinion is that some aerodynamic counter force should have

been designed into the horizontal surfaces of these models, which were

otherwise well evolved to accept the heavier engines, and made more

aerodynamic by using the shaped ribs.  

	I will soon install the "help me Joe" kit that McBean has

developed for the 5 thru 7 series to help with the elevator force when

flaps are used, and I will do gap sealing, and then report the results.

I am also planning to change the tail wheel to an 8" pneumatic, which is

1 lb heavier than what I have now.  1 lb is not a lot, but it is as far

back as can be, so it should help a little.  



Duane Rueb



	--

jopatco(at)mindspring.com
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:33 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Sound like your plane is nose heavy.



--

wingsdown(at)comcast.net
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Did you sweep the wings forward for the heavier engine? If the stick is

all the way back the assist really wont be the answer. You need a bigger

elevator. I would also think , just guessing that even an elevator as a

maximum AOA to which point it ceases to be effective, not sure. I would

still try a quick gap seal, little to loose. My turbo NSI was heavy  but

always light on the stick. If I had ever put the stick in my belly I

would have done at loop. Where is the battery? 



Rick



--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:10 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Hi Duane,



You must be operating right at the forward CG limit. 

Where is your battery and ELT?



Adding the extra 1 lb to the tail will help.  More

would be better.  Just 5 lbs back there makes a big

difference.  Also the gap seals and maybe vortex

generators under the horizontal stab would do good

too.



If you move the CG a little more aft you will find

that your stick will be fine as is.



The electric trim has always been a bit overpowering

and there is a "fix" somewhere in this list's history.

 I trim and immediately beep once for opposite trim to

make small changes.  After a few such reversals I can

get mine to hold right on altitude, but a 1/2 rate or

manual trim would be better.  Is yours manual?



The more off the center of your CG, the more touchy

the trim is.



I am near the fwd CG limit too.  For my testing, I

added 7 gallons of water to the baggage compartment to

achieve center CG flight.  It flys there as

advertised.  I kept to the fwd limit so I could carry

max pax and cargo and stay in limits.  With just me on

board, I can trim to 60 knots and 3 point up to 1/2

flaps.  Full flaps takes some work but I can get a

stall there too.



Kurt S.  S-5/NSI turbo



--- "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu> wrote:

 

 	  Quote: 	
		   Darin and 5 plus pilots

 

 	I have a series 5 with a Continental IO-240B4B

 doing the towing.

 Both myself and my instructor find the stick force

 required to approach

 at 65mph indicated and to flare to be quite high,

 and a true 3 point is

 almost not possible, even with the stick in your

 stomach and the trim at

 the up limit.  The more flap used, the worse this

 becomes.


	


__________________________________________________

ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 9:53 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Kurt:



	My battery is in the back.  The ELT is behind the baggage

compartment.   Like you, I want to be able to put something in the

baggage compartment and have it be OK, not tail heavy.  Thanks for the

tip on the vortex generators on the lower stab.  I hadn't thought of

that one, and could probably live with them there.  I admit that I am

really just getting to be a tail dragger pilot, but when my instructor

does a demonstration landing he has almost as much trouble as me, and

the last few sessions, I was making better ones than he was, but now I

have made more in this plane than he has too.  Of course, what we are

striving for is a true three point.  Yes, like you, I like it best with

1/2 flaps so far.   I have become skilled at pulsing the trim, as it

sounds like you have.  



Duane 



--

Robert_Harris(at)intuit.c
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:06 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

Duane,



You can use Duct tape on your tail feathers for an easy fast fix. My

plane is white so I used White Duct and it looks great and makes my

920lb 0200 Model V do perfect three point landings with 50% flaps.  Also

I have John McBean's Elevator Assist installed so the stick pressure is

very light.

Robert

Model V KF

San Diego



--

smokey_bear_40220(at)yaho
Guest

Posted: Tue May 30, 2006 11:10 am Post subject: Series 7 Stick Forces?

If it isn't too hard, try mounting the ELT back by the

battery, but where you can get at it.  Mine is

actually behind the battery under the stab with the

antenna in front of the verticle stab.



Those little weight changes can help.  Do your W&B

math and see how the weight shift helps to see if it

is worth while.  I am not a lead and dead weight

advocate.  Even more battery is better than dead

weight.



I can get 135# back there with a gross wt load. 

Probably make the 150 limit, if I don't put too much

in the seats.  Then again, what would I be carrying

that is 135 pounds and that small?  Third pax in an

emergency?  Moose meat?



Kurt S.



--- "Rueb, Duane" <ruebd(at)skymail.csus.edu> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Kurt:

 

 My battery is in the back.  The ELT is behind the

baggage compartment. 
	




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