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Thermocouple leads
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Dennis Jones



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Poplar Grove, IL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

I had to increase the length of the thermocouple leads to reach the data processing unit. All six cylinders show abnormally high temps. Could the increase in resistance cause the temperature increase?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

EGT or CHT?

How were they "extended"?

What type of thermocouple? (K, J, Resistive)

--


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 5:55 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

I had to increase the length of the thermocouple leads to reach the data
processing unit. All six cylinders show abnormally high temps. Could the
increase in resistance cause the temperature increase?

Dennis,

Did you use thermocouple wire for the extension?
Thermocouples generate a potential depending upon the temperature difference
from one end to the other. You must use proper procedure when extending
these wires.

Roger


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Dennis Jones



Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 45
Location: Poplar Grove, IL

PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Both CHT and EGT. They are thermocouple wire. I used the exact same wire as the equipment came with. I silver soldered the new lead extensions as shown by Bob. I do have a multimeter that will test thermocouple wire however I have not used that feature as of yet. The one test I have not attempted is the check of the indication without the engine running. My studies show that they should indicate ambient temperature.

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jason(at)jasonbeaver.com
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:59 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box and the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of inaccuracy in the temperature reading.

thanks,

jason

On Jan 31, 2012, at 10:33 PM, Dennis Jones wrote:

Quote:


Both CHT and EGT. They are thermocouple wire. I used the exact same wire as the equipment came with. I silver soldered the new lead extensions as shown by Bob. I do have a multimeter that will test thermocouple wire however I have not used that feature as of yet. The one test I have not attempted is the check of the indication without the engine running. My studies show that they should indicate ambient temperature.




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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 6:27 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

At 10:57 PM 1/31/2012, you wrote:
Quote:


Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT
thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a
Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box
and the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of
inaccuracy in the temperature reading.

I doubt it very much. The coax is double shielded
(electro-static coupling ZERO) and the currents
flowing in the center-conductor (outbound) exactly
compliment return currents flowing in the shield.

How much inaccuracy? You said they read high? All
read high by the same amount? Are your probes isolated
from engine ground or do they both electrically and
thermally connect to the engine? Does turning the
alternator on/off make any difference? Try turning
EVERYTHING on to make this test. Present the alternator
with the largest possibible load.


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Quote:

Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT
thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a
Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box
and the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of
inaccuracy in the temperature reading.

I doubt it very much. The coax is double shielded
(electro-static coupling ZERO) and the currents
flowing in the center-conductor (outbound) exactly
compliment return currents flowing in the shield.

How much inaccuracy? You said they read high? All
read high by the same amount? Are your probes isolated
from engine ground or do they both electrically and
thermally connect to the engine? Does turning the
alternator on/off make any difference? Try turning
EVERYTHING on to make this test. Present the alternator
with the largest possibible load.


Bob . . .

I believe you are combining 2 questions from different
listers. One extended thermocouple wires and has a high reading and the
other is questioning if running thermocouple next to ignition wires causes
incorrect readings.

Roger


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:33 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

I'm not flying yet, so I have no way of testing. The tech counselor was just speculating that this could be a source of inaccurate readings.

Thanks,

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:04 AM, "ROGER & JEAN CURTIS" <mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:

Quote:
>
> Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT
> thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a
> Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box
> and the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of
> inaccuracy in the temperature reading.

I doubt it very much. The coax is double shielded
(electro-static coupling ZERO) and the currents
flowing in the center-conductor (outbound) exactly
compliment return currents flowing in the shield.

How much inaccuracy? You said they read high? All
read high by the same amount? Are your probes isolated
from engine ground or do they both electrically and
thermally connect to the engine? Does turning the
alternator on/off make any difference? Try turning
EVERYTHING on to make this test. Present the alternator
with the largest possibible load.




Bob . . .

I believe you are combining 2 questions from different
listers. One extended thermocouple wires and has a high reading and the
other is questioning if running thermocouple next to ignition wires causes
incorrect readings.

Roger
<winmail.dat>


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:25 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

At 10:25 AM 2/1/2012, you wrote:
Quote:


I'm not flying yet, so I have no way of testing. The tech counselor
was just speculating that this could be a source of inaccurate readings.

Okay, thanks for getting me back on track! Don't
worry about your wire routing.
Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:22 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

On 2/1/2012 8:25 AM, Jason Beaver wrote:
Quote:


I'm not flying yet, so I have no way of testing. The tech counselor was just speculating that this could be a source of inaccurate readings.

Thanks,

Jason

Sent from my iPhone
Even if its off so what? You don't really care what the temps are, you

want to know the peak and then turn to your own set of beliefs re: LOP
or ROP operations.
You will be the one to drill the hole in your exhaust and where you put
it makes a tremendous difference in the actual temp.
CHTs different story of course.
Tim


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

If it a jpi, I have seen an improper ground cause all to read high. Make sure your instrument is grounded to the engine and not a ground bus inside.

Tim Perry

On Jan 31, 2012, at 11:33 PM, "Dennis Jones" <djones(at)northboone.net> wrote:

Quote:


Both CHT and EGT. They are thermocouple wire. I used the exact same wire as the equipment came with. I silver soldered the new lead extensions as shown by Bob. I do have a multimeter that will test thermocouple wire however I have not used that feature as of yet. The one test I have not attempted is the check of the indication without the engine running. My studies show that they should indicate ambient temperature.




Read this topic online here:

http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=365354#365354












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longg(at)pjm.com
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

I'll second that. On the Dynon an improper ground on 1 device/sensor can/will impact the reading on another. I used to have an old Cadillac which when you moved the electric seat the high beams flashed. They called it a feature.

Glenn

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 5:54 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

At 01:20 PM 2/1/2012, you wrote:
Quote:


I'll second that. On the Dynon an improper ground on 1 device/sensor
can/will impact the reading on another. I used to have an old
Cadillac which when you moved the electric seat the high beams
flashed. They called it a feature.

Glenn


Kudos Tim and Glenn. If the thermocouples are physically
welded to the bottoms of their thermowells . . . and they
often are . . . then what ever voltage difference that
exists between the crankcase and the instrument's ground
will ride on top of the thermocouple signals as a common
mode voltage.

All of thermocouple conditioning chips I've worked with
for the last 20 years have a considerable tolerance to
DC common mode interference but if the interference has
alternator ripple on it, it might be another matter. Hence
the questions about effects of alternator ON versus OFF.

It would also be a good experiment to run a temporary
instrument ground to the crankcase just to see if it
makes any difference.
Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 2:00 am    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Another "lightbulb" reply, thank you.  I know I've read this in the Connection, but still, a reminder doesn't go amiss. 

Is this effect mitigated by having a common ground on the firewall, with a braided strap to the engine?  If the instruments are grounded to the forest of tabs, and that's only a short distance along a fat piece of copper to the engine... 


James

On 1 February 2012 22:22, Robert L. Nuckolls, III <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)> wrote:
[quote]--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "Robert L. Nuckolls, III" <nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com (nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com)>


At 01:20 PM 2/1/2012, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: <longg(at)pjm.com (longg(at)pjm.com)>

I'll second that. On the Dynon an improper ground on 1 device/sensor can/will impact the reading on another. I used to have an old Cadillac which when you moved the electric seat the high beams flashed. They called it a feature.

Glenn



  Kudos Tim and Glenn. If the thermocouples are physically
  welded to the bottoms of their thermowells . . . and they
  often are . . . then what ever voltage difference that
  exists between the crankcase and the instrument's ground
  will ride on top of the thermocouple signals as a common
  mode voltage.

  All of thermocouple conditioning chips I've worked with
  for the last 20 years have a considerable tolerance to
  DC common mode interference but if the interference has
  alternator ripple on it, it might be another matter. Hence
  the questions about effects of alternator ON versus OFF.

  It would also be a good experiment to run a temporary
  instrument ground to the crankcase just to see if it
  makes any difference.


 Bob . . .

[b]


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:32 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

That brings up a q that you might have answered in the original post:
Does each TC have it's own ground connected to it's own gauge? That is,
does each thermocouple supply two distinct lines to it's gauge? You
cannot use a common ground for each TC and only tie the signal wire to
the instrument.

David M.

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

At 10:57 PM 1/31/2012, you wrote:
>
> <jason(at)jasonbeaver.com>
>
> Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT
> thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a
> Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box and
> the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of
> inaccuracy in the temperature reading.

I doubt it very much. The coax is double shielded
(electro-static coupling ZERO) and the currents
flowing in the center-conductor (outbound) exactly
compliment return currents flowing in the shield.

How much inaccuracy? You said they read high? All
read high by the same amount? Are your probes isolated
from engine ground or do they both electrically and
thermally connect to the engine? Does turning the
alternator on/off make any difference? Try turning
EVERYTHING on to make this test. Present the alternator
with the largest possibible load.


Bob . . .


--
Tell the truth. Be honest. Be responsible to and for yourself.

I liked America when it was free and it's people were responsible and had morals.

Every gram of cocaine you buy from elsewhere contributes to an innocent being murdered in Central and South America. Grow your own or Stop taking it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:35 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Also, any (new) junction will create an inaccuracy unless you calibrate
with the total installation.

David M.

Jason Beaver wrote:
Quote:


I'm not flying yet, so I have no way of testing. The tech counselor was just speculating that this could be a source of inaccurate readings.

Thanks,

Jason

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 1, 2012, at 10:04 AM, "ROGER& JEAN CURTIS"<mrspudandcompany(at)verizon.net> wrote:


>> Does anyone know if there are any issues in running EGT/CHT
>> thermocouple wires along side the coax ignition leads from a
>> Lightspeed Plasma II ignition (the lines between the ignition box
>> and the coils)? My tech counselor said this could be a source of
>> inaccuracy in the temperature reading.
>>
> I doubt it very much. The coax is double shielded
> (electro-static coupling ZERO) and the currents
> flowing in the center-conductor (outbound) exactly
> compliment return currents flowing in the shield.
>
> How much inaccuracy? You said they read high? All
> read high by the same amount? Are your probes isolated
> from engine ground or do they both electrically and
> thermally connect to the engine? Does turning the
> alternator on/off make any difference? Try turning
> EVERYTHING on to make this test. Present the alternator
> with the largest possibible load.
>
>
> Bob . . .
>
> I believe you are combining 2 questions from different
> listers. One extended thermocouple wires and has a high reading and the
> other is questioning if running thermocouple next to ignition wires causes
> incorrect readings.
>
> Roger
> <winmail.dat>
>



--
Tell the truth. Be honest. Be responsible to and for yourself.

I liked America when it was free and it's people were responsible and had morals.

Every gram of cocaine you buy from elsewhere contributes to an innocent being murdered in Central and South America. Grow your own or Stop taking it.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:39 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

At 06:01 PM 2/2/2012, you wrote:
Quote:


Also, any (new) junction will create an inaccuracy unless you
calibrate with the total installation.

David M.


A set of thermocouple leads can have quite a few
extraneous junctions without affecting accuracy
as long as (1) current in the leads is very low
indeed approaching zero. Such is the case with most
modern thermocouple instruments using specialized
integrated circuits for thermocouple signal
conditioning. And (2) EACH junction needs to be
repeated in number and kind on both sides of the
thermocouple pair.

This is described in more detail here:

http://aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf


Bob . . .


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Not exactly grue, David... if it's a chromel/chromel junction and a
alumel/alumel junction, there's no potential developed across it, so
nothing to calibrate out. If, for instance, someone inserts some
copper wire, you'll have chromel/copper and copper chromel junctions,
and assuming they're separated, and at different temperatures, that
temperature difference CANNOT be assumed to be constant... so there's no
way to calibrate it out.

So... either it doesn't matter, or it can't be known. No middle ground.

Paul

On 2/2/2012 4:01 PM, David wrote:
Quote:


Also, any (new) junction will create an inaccuracy unless you
calibrate with the total installation.

David M.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:48 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

Hmmm, Bob... the physics doesn't support your assertion, unless you
(mistakenly I'd think) assume that all those junctions are somehow held
at the same temperature. And how would you accomplish that?

With the relatively common high impedance measuring devices, resistance
in the leads isn't really the issue... but adding uncontrolled junctions
at different temperatures can sure play havoc with accuracy.

Paul

On 2/2/2012 5:27 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:
A set of thermocouple leads can have quite a few
extraneous junctions without affecting accuracy
as long as (1) current in the leads is very low
indeed approaching zero. Such is the case with most
modern thermocouple instruments using specialized
integrated circuits for thermocouple signal
conditioning. And (2) EACH junction needs to be
repeated in number and kind on both sides of the
thermocouple pair.

--
Please note my new email address!
millner(at)me.com


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 8:04 pm    Post subject: Thermocouple leads Reply with quote

The OP didn't say whether he was using old style instruments or newer,
(more digital) ones.

David M.

Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:
Quote:

<nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelectric.com>

At 06:01 PM 2/2/2012, you wrote:
>
>
> Also, any (new) junction will create an inaccuracy unless you
> calibrate with the total installation.
>
> David M.
>

A set of thermocouple leads can have quite a few
extraneous junctions without affecting accuracy
as long as (1) current in the leads is very low
indeed approaching zero. Such is the case with most
modern thermocouple instruments using specialized
integrated circuits for thermocouple signal
conditioning. And (2) EACH junction needs to be
repeated in number and kind on both sides of the
thermocouple pair.

This is described in more detail here:

http://aeroelectric.com/articles/excerpt.pdf


Bob . . .


--
Tell the truth. Be honest. Be responsible to and for yourself.

I liked America when it was free and it's people were responsible and had morals.

Every gram of cocaine you buy from elsewhere contributes to an innocent being murdered in Central and South America. Grow your own or Stop taking it.


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