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Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 6:12 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I'd agree with that...it really depends.  There are many times in the

summer that you'll get lines of stuff or many splotches scattered,

of popup cells. (Lines are usually worse)  I've found that it's

usually best to stay VFR on those days....save the IFR for layers

and for wide areas of rain.  So you stay VFR, but you end up

flying surprisingly nice air weaving between all of the buildups.

I am careful not to get where there are clouds overhead, because

then you have no idea what's above you that could fall (hail)

out of the cloud.  But I've had many trips where I had to

weave through buildups to get places, and it didn't feel

especially dangerous at all.  At the same time, I don't think

lightning would be likely to jump out to where I was either.

But, I think if you're flying IFR through rain clouds, you'd

have more worry about lightning even if it's only mildly

convective, and probably what's more of a concern than lightning

is P-static.  You'll be far more likely to be affected by

P-static flying IFR than lighting, because as Thane States states

(fun to say) you probably will be avoiding the convective

stuff as much as possible anyway, and definitely you'll be

staying out of the worrysome convective stuff.

On my screens, I've found Green is usually good, yellow

is usually doable, and with WSI at least, it's been

pretty darn accurate with minimal delay, so easy

to navigate past.  Red, is bad (or so I'd think), but I've

never flown through it to find out.

Tim

On 5/25/2012 8:32 AM, Jesse Saint wrote:

[quote] I guess that depends on how you define "anywhere near". Flying through a

 thunderstorm is not wise, but flying near one is often necessary,

 especially on a typical Florida summer day.

 Jesse Saint

 I-TEC, Inc.

 jesse(at)itecusa.org <mailto:jesse(at)itecusa.org>

 www.itecusa.org <http://www.itecusa.org>

 www.mavericklsa.com <http://www.mavericklsa.com>

 C: 352-427-0285

 O: 352-465-4545

 F: 815-377-3694

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 25, 2012, at 8:36 AM, "Thane States" <thane2(at)comporium.net

 <mailto:thane2(at)comporium.net>> wrote:

> Just my opinion, but if you are anywhere near lightning, then you are

> taking added risk that is unnecessary. Where there is lightning there

> is way to much convective activity. I would never put my family in

> that scenario. With all those fancy avionics you can avoid WX like

> that. Just my 2 cents. Great loking panel, I love my GRT.

> Thane

>

>     ---

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:48 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

My point exactly. I actually have seen lightning as much as about 5nm (estimated) away from the CB clouds when skirting a squall line before, but if you look at a NEXRAD and Strikes overlay, the strikes are almost exclusively in the red. I fly through green as often as necessary, yellow to avoid huge detours, and NEVER red. I don't mind flying through building clouds with tops up to maybe 12,000-15,000 ft or so, but avoid towering cumulous much above that. I also try to avoid flying under that stuff for the same reasons and because it's usually pretty bumpy, although sometimes its necessary for takeoff and landing. I would certainly much sooner go high and pick my way between the tops before going under to get past a line. 



Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694



Sent from my iPhone



On May 25, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   

 

 I'd agree with that...it really depends.  There are many times in the

 summer that you'll get lines of stuff or many splotches scattered,

 of popup cells. (Lines are usually worse)  I've found that it's

 usually best to stay VFR on those days....save the IFR for layers

 and for wide areas of rain.  So you stay VFR, but you end up

 flying surprisingly nice air weaving between all of the buildups.

 I am careful not to get where there are clouds overhead, because

 then you have no idea what's above you that could fall (hail)

 out of the cloud.  But I've had many trips where I had to

 weave through buildups to get places, and it didn't feel

 especially dangerous at all.  At the same time, I don't think

 lightning would be likely to jump out to where I was either.

 

 But, I think if you're flying IFR through rain clouds, you'd

 have more worry about lightning even if it's only mildly

 convective, and probably what's more of a concern than lightning

 is P-static.  You'll be far more likely to be affected by

 P-static flying IFR than lighting, because as Thane States states

 (fun to say) you probably will be avoiding the convective

 stuff as much as possible anyway, and definitely you'll be

 staying out of the worrysome convective stuff.

 

 On my screens, I've found Green is usually good, yellow

 is usually doable, and with WSI at least, it's been

 pretty darn accurate with minimal delay, so easy

 to navigate past.  Red, is bad (or so I'd think), but I've

 never flown through it to find out.

 

 Tim

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:08 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

This is a great discussion for me since the only weather we ever

really see at home is fog.  Since I don't have much T-storm

experience, I was told to give them 20 miles.  Is that too

conservative?

Along the same lines, there's a line of reasoning that says that EFIS

should be backed up with spinning gyro instruments.  Gyros would

theoretically be less susceptible to a lightning strike or other major

electrical issue.  I have a D-10A as my backup, and I'm starting to

wonder about it.  We're designing a panel as I type and I'm

considering going with a turn coordinator, airspeed, altimeter, and

wet compass as the mechanical backups.  I'm thinking that most of us

did some partial panel training with a failed attitude indicator, and

using the remaining "five-pack" works OK.  Not great, but OK, and

maybe the TC will be a little more reliable than an electric attitude

indicator.  I haven't had great luck with them.

I'm interested in what you all think about that scheme.

Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Jesse Saint <jesse(at)saintaviation.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 My point exactly. I actually have seen lightning as much as about 5nm (estimated) away from the CB clouds when skirting a squall line before, but if you look at a NEXRAD and Strikes overlay, the strikes are almost exclusively in the red. I fly through green as often as necessary, yellow to avoid huge detours, and NEVER red. I don't mind flying through building clouds with tops up to maybe 12,000-15,000 ft or so, but avoid towering cumulous much above that. I also try to avoid flying under that stuff for the same reasons and because it's usually pretty bumpy, although sometimes its necessary for takeoff and landing. I would certainly much sooner go high and pick my way between the tops before going under to get past a line.

 Jesse Saint

 I-TEC, Inc.

 jesse(at)itecusa.org

 www.itecusa.org

 www.mavericklsa.com

 C: 352-427-0285

 O: 352-465-4545

 F: 815-377-3694

 Sent from my iPhone

 On May 25, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

> 

>

> I'd agree with that...it really depends. Â There are many times in the

> summer that you'll get lines of stuff or many splotches scattered,

> of popup cells. (Lines are usually worse) Â I've found that it's

> usually best to stay VFR on those days....save the IFR for layers

> and for wide areas of rain. Â So you stay VFR, but you end up

> flying surprisingly nice air weaving between all of the buildups.

> I am careful not to get where there are clouds overhead, because

> then you have no idea what's above you that could fall (hail)

> out of the cloud. Â But I've had many trips where I had to

> weave through buildups to get places, and it didn't feel

> especially dangerous at all. Â At the same time, I don't think

> lightning would be likely to jump out to where I was either.

>

> But, I think if you're flying IFR through rain clouds, you'd

> have more worry about lightning even if it's only mildly

> convective, and probably what's more of a concern than lightning

> is P-static. Â You'll be far more likely to be affected by

> P-static flying IFR than lighting, because as Thane States states

> (fun to say) you probably will be avoiding the convective

> stuff as much as possible anyway, and definitely you'll be

> staying out of the worrysome convective stuff.

>

> On my screens, I've found Green is usually good, yellow

> is usually doable, and with WSI at least, it's been

> pretty darn accurate with minimal delay, so easy

> to navigate past. Â Red, is bad (or so I'd think), but I've

> never flown through it to find out.

>

> Tim

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 9:28 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Don't know how the EFISs hold up with lightning, however, I did

inadvertently (during an O sh*t moment) short an Odyssey 680 to ground via a

Chelton IDU case with no ill effect.  The Cheltons can be installed in

certified aircraft so I believe they have been tested in adverse conditions.

Tim Olsen may know more.



--

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:13 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I ratcheted though this thought process awhile back and ending up firmly on the "no spinning gyro" answer.



I started with a very expensive RC Allen electric AI in my 8A.  It started to go south at 200 hours and I had to pull it shortly thereafter.  I now have a Dynon D10A in its place that been flawless for the last 500+ hours.  This set the stage for my choice of a dual SkyView EFIS install (with primary and back up ADHRS) in the RV-10.  Considering my experience and others I have engaged, the reliability of dual EFIS and dual ADHRS far exceeds that of spinning gyros.



Note however that I have taken steps to mitigate against electrical failure from taking down both EFIS systems.  If you have a single power distribution scheme and don't want to change it, then vacuum gyros may be the way to go.



Also of note, while the FARs state you must have a "magnetic heading reference", this has been interpreted by the Washington FSDO office as a wet compass.  They did not wish to justify that policy, but since I wanted them to sign off my plane I decided not to push the point (and I got the sign off last Wednesday!).



Carl



--

robin(at)PaintTheWeb.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Carl,

Congratulations on your sign off. 

Do you consider the dedicated back up battery for the Dynon to be part of what you describe as a " single power distribution scheme"? I have a triple battery system. Primary & backup for all electronics and then the dedicated back up battery for my D100. Seems like enough redundancy?



Robin 



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:40 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

In reading Jesse's follow up post, I think he and I approach it

basically the same. Having lightning strike data is awesome.

You then know you have a very convective and strong cell or line.

So, I avoid where the strikes are, and use that as part of

my plan as I weave around.  Also, tops.  If the tops are

calling 20K' or so, I know they're going to be big. I don't

want to fly through that, even if it's not red and I'm on

an IFR plan.  To me, bumps are never fun.  Also, even when you're

only looking at 10,000' tops, when you fly through them you

often hit a bump as you enter and get bumped around inside...but

if you stay out of the visible cloud, you get a smoother ride.

As you talk about fog, I think that is really the better IFR

conditions.  The downside is that fog is often to the ground.

Where I live, we often get PERFECT IFR type conditions for fun.

500'-2000' ceilings of stratus layers, where you can get on

top.  That's the kind of IFR I don't mind.  I don't want

to mess with IFR if it's convective.  Under it isn't fun,

but I'll go under if the tops aren't high.  But if they're

higher buildups, I use my WX equipment to get me AROUND the

weather.  I wouldn't file IFR if I can go VFR easily,

because then I can deviate all I want without requests.

I'd be happy to go VFR Flight Following or IFR, but only

if they're happy to give me the leeway to make course changes

every 10-20 miles so I can weave around. Convective buildups

just aren't good for flying in...and by using that as my

concept in a plan, it really helps keep you out of trouble

somewhat.  The times it bites is if the widely scattered

clouds turn into broken, and you have a harder time maintaining

ground contact...when that sneaks up on you, you're better

off having been or being on an IFR plan already so you

can plug along...but plan on making deviations.

As far as 20nm being too conservative, I would not be able to

say that is true. I think the 20nm recommendation is a

healthy safety margin and think it's good to promote it

as such.  The fact is though, that it can really depend.

If you're talking buildups that aren't precipitating,

you can basically just fly right by them.  If they're

precipitating, then you have to pay close attention.

Are there lighting strikes?  What are the tops? What

colors do you see....Red? Pink?  These are indicators

of it being pretty nasty inside. Those are best to

avoid by as much as you can.  20nm though is sometimes

not workable if there are lots of small separate cells,

so you either have to land, deviate, or come up with

some other plan. For me, part of the key is what

you will be flying directly underneath.  They want you

to keep 20nm away because stuff comes out of those

clouds.  Lightning can reach out a little ways as Jesse

said.  Hail can lift up and fall out around it too.

But, if you are able to keep perfectly blue skies above

your head, 20nm can be more than you need.  This isn't

saying the recommendation isn't good.  It just may be

that you can do closer without too much concern.

Check out this really awful screenshot:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611160341.html

Notice all the areas where there is NOTHING, but suddenly

an intense yellow area with red...some were really

strong.  But, they were all over heck...and in my way.

Well, IFR, I would have probably packed it in for the

day and landed.  But, since it was daylight and I was

VFR, and could see out the window fine, I got to play

ball.

Here is a picture out the window:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611163547.html

Notice the overhang on the cloud cell.  But, I'm in clear skies.

My goal at that time was to A) keep ground contact by flying

in the valleys between anything big.  B) Keep OUT from that

overhanging cloud.  As long as I could keep a couple miles

out under perfect blue skies, it was a good ride. I didn't

want any hail falling on me, and I didn't see any lightning.

I was closer than 20 miles, but wasn't close enough that

we would be affected by the cloud.

Now going further along the trip, here's another screenshot near

that area.

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611164520.html

Here's the view out the window:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611164500.html

You can see that the gap between the cells may have been 20 miles

or so, but there was nothing overhanging the cell, and it was

visibly clear above me, and I was far enough from the cells that

we had no effect.  This was closer than I'd have wanted, and

you know darn well I was watching very very close keeping

track of the ground, the weather on the OTHER side of the gap

(could something build up and block me from continuing?), and

what the conditions were.  This wasn't a time for IFR, and I'd

have been causing ATC a pain in the butt with VFR flight following.

But as long as I was in clear skies, no overhead clouds, and

it was a smooth ride, it was easily doable.  For someone

not used to flying around that stuff, might be best to ease

into it...but we get that all the time up here.

To show you a picture of a day that will make you pull your hair

out, check this one out:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20090819/RV20090814160153.html

It came from this write-up, btw:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20090819/index.html

The funny thing is, by staying VFR and knowing exactly

what you were flying in, it was doable.  Again, if you're not

from an area that has these conditions, it's worth easing

into it.  But, the trip actually went well.

 From a different trip, this pic shows something easy to go through:

http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20080901/SD200809012686.html

So it all depends on a lot of factors, really.  There are times

when 20nm will be a very good yardstick. Each situation is

different.

Although I don't have a spinning gyro, if you fly IFR,

I would say that would be your BEST way to go for a backup.

Would be nice to be lightning proof and p-static proof,

and everything else.  So, while I don't have that in

my plane, I do think that's the best way to go.  Having another

EFIS as a backup really is an inferior backup...and anyone

that believes otherwise is just being defensive and not

owning up to reality.  I don't have a spinning gyro in

my plane, so yes, with that statement made, it's deficient.

That's not a slam on y'all, either.  I'm just saying that

if you're flying IFR, it's BEST to have a spinning gyro backup.

There are downsides to it too, especially from a maintenance

perspective...but it would be the best choice.  Something

that can't get taken out by lightning, doesn't use software,

and can keep you upright with no electricity.

Anyway, weather is a pretty interesting subject to talk about,

because opinions vary, even looking at the same cloud.

My major concern is I want smooth air, no hail, no lightning,

and to get where I'm going.

Tim

Do not archive

On 5/25/2012 12:07 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 This is a great discussion for me since the only weather we ever

 really see at home is fog.  Since I don't have much T-storm

 experience, I was told to give them 20 miles.  Is that too

 conservative?

 Along the same lines, there's a line of reasoning that says that EFIS

 should be backed up with spinning gyro instruments.  Gyros would

 theoretically be less susceptible to a lightning strike or other major

 electrical issue.  I have a D-10A as my backup, and I'm starting to

 wonder about it.  We're designing a panel as I type and I'm

 considering going with a turn coordinator, airspeed, altimeter, and

 wet compass as the mechanical backups.  I'm thinking that most of us

 did some partial panel training with a failed attitude indicator, and

 using the remaining "five-pack" works OK.  Not great, but OK, and

 maybe the TC will be a little more reliable than an electric attitude

 indicator.  I haven't had great luck with them.

 I'm interested in what you all think about that scheme.

 Dave Saylor

 831-750-0284 CL

 On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Jesse Saint<jesse(at)saintaviation.com>  wrote:

> 

>

> My point exactly. I actually have seen lightning as much as about 5nm (estimated) away from the CB clouds when skirting a squall line before, but if you look at a NEXRAD and Strikes overlay, the strikes are almost exclusively in the red. I fly through green as often as necessary, yellow to avoid huge detours, and NEVER red. I don't mind flying through building clouds with tops up to maybe 12,000-15,000 ft or so, but avoid towering cumulous much above that. I also try to avoid flying under that stuff for the same reasons and because it's usually pretty bumpy, although sometimes its necessary for takeoff and landing. I would certainly much sooner go high and pick my way between the tops before going under to get past a line.

>

> Jesse Saint

> I-TEC, Inc.

> jesse(at)itecusa.org

> www.itecusa.org

> www.mavericklsa.com

> C: 352-427-0285

> O: 352-465-4545

> F: 815-377-3694

>

> Sent from my iPhone

>

> On May 25, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Tim Olson<Tim(at)myrv10.com>  wrote:

>

>> 

>>

>> I'd agree with that...it really depends.  There are many times in the

>> summer that you'll get lines of stuff or many splotches scattered,

>> of popup cells. (Lines are usually worse)  I've found that it's

>> usually best to stay VFR on those days....save the IFR for layers

>> and for wide areas of rain.  So you stay VFR, but you end up

>> flying surprisingly nice air weaving between all of the buildups.

>> I am careful not to get where there are clouds overhead, because

>> then you have no idea what's above you that could fall (hail)

>> out of the cloud.  But I've had many trips where I had to

>> weave through buildups to get places, and it didn't feel

>> especially dangerous at all.  At the same time, I don't think

>> lightning would be likely to jump out to where I was either.

>>

>> But, I think if you're flying IFR through rain clouds, you'd

>> have more worry about lightning even if it's only mildly

>> convective, and probably what's more of a concern than lightning

>> is P-static.  You'll be far more likely to be affected by

>> P-static flying IFR than lighting, because as Thane States states

>> (fun to say) you probably will be avoiding the convective

>> stuff as much as possible anyway, and definitely you'll be

>> staying out of the worrysome convective stuff.

>>

>> On my screens, I've found Green is usually good, yellow

>> is usually doable, and with WSI at least, it's been

>> pretty darn accurate with minimal delay, so easy

>> to navigate past.  Red, is bad (or so I'd think), but I've

>> never flown through it to find out.

>>

>> Tim

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:44 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I'm no expert but living in the SE, convection, cumulus, and T-storms 

are almost daily occurences in the summer somewhere along your trip.  

Twenty miles just won't let you get anywhere in this part of the country.



Here in the SE, getting up as high as you can w/o O2 will usually allow 

you to fly among the tops.  Even if they aren't raining or lightening 

(yet), it's best to stay out of them unless you can clearly see what's 

going on the other side and if don't mind being bumped around.  

Controllers issue deviations freely... especially where and when you 

need them most, e.g.  JAX center in FL.



For short flights, it's often equally effective to stay below cloud base 

and just fly around the rain shafts.  But this depends on having a clear 

look at the buildups on top of the rain shafts.  If it's overcast and 

convective (imbedded storms), that just doesn't work whether you stay 

below or fly in the clouds.  Even with Nexrad, there's no reason to be 

flying around or underneath imbedded convective storms in my opinion.



I would say no one purposely goes into a convective storm anymore 

including the airlines.  But there's a lot of very informed flying 

around them these days.  I guess the big guys all have radar and Nexrad 

and most of us little guys have Nexrad (and before that Cheap Bastard).  

It works very well... especially if you stay visual.



Coming home last week I was flying between big buildups north of 

Charlotte at 11k.  Staying visual forced me towards a waypoint that all 

the traffic in the KCLT seemed to be crossing at 11k.  Sure enough, it 

was on a commonly used STAR.  I listened to plane after plane ask for 

deviations as they came into the waypoint, but then they'd cross it and 

proceed in.  I was forced to ask for the same treatment but the 

controllers didn't want me crossing the arrival point along with the 

airliners, especially at a 90degree angle to the other traffic.  I told 

them I could stay 3 miles away from it and still get thru the break in 

the buildups and that seemed to work for them.  Funny thing is that I 

never saw another plane during the passage (and my ADS-B was only 

showing some of the storm and no traffic at that moment).  But I ended 

up flying less than a mile away from the buildups as I squeezed thru.  

There were occassional flashes and it was clearly raining below them but 

they were slow builders with almost no movement and it turned out fine.



For me, the key is staying visual on convective days but I will fly 

close to buildups depending on how stuff looks.  Sometimes you get 

surprised a bit as I did out in AZ recently.   Things are bigger, 

higher, and faster out there and I still need to calibrate my eyeballs a 

bit better for western conditions.



Bill "a thunderstorm is just a grown up thermal having a tantrum" Watson

On 5/25/2012 1:07 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 This is a great discussion for me since the only weather we ever

 really see at home is fog.  Since I don't have much T-storm

 experience, I was told to give them 20 miles.  Is that too

 conservative?

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:48 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I too have a wet compass; my IFR solution is a Chelton systen EFIS as

primary; a GRT Sport as backup which is powered by either the primary or

esential busses and a Trutrak Digiflite AP (on the primary buss) with its

own internal solid state gyros. Any of three systems can be used to keep te

dirty side down. The AP source can be selected by rotary switch so that the

Cheltons, the GRT or the AP provide flight control.



--

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:07 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Back when I flew hard IFR, the thing  that was most helpful was the Strikefinder. Those were the days when some  federal judge "found" that digital and analog technologies were patent  infringing. With some effort one was installed and the aircraft was flown where  the lightning strikes were not. Smooth ride even though the  rain was so heavy that water came in the doors. The delay in the Sat WX  processing seems to cause some confusion about where not to  fly. Looking forward to ADS-B install and FAA installation completion.  I will still be wary the delay. Fog is not a problem; usually smooth ride  but LIFR conditions.



--

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:36 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I have two Odyssey PC-625 batteries and one 60amp Plane Power alternator.  I

am not using the Dynon back up battery as it is redundant in my install.



There are several ways to design a power distribution to guard against a

single failure taking out the whole panel.  When doing this, one should

consider not just the individual component reliability, but overall system

reliability.  There was a article a few years back in one of the magazines

about a twin engine plane having total electrical failure at night.  This

was a standard spam can with two alternators and two batteries.  The failure

was a common connection that failed (high resistance contact).  A simple

example of this concept is the use of an "Avionics Master" switch.  It fails

and you have no panel no matter how many batteries and alternators you have.



For those interested I can send you what I did in Power Point slides off

line. 



Carl



--

dave.saylor.aircrafters(a
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:41 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I don't think the concerns are so much running out of power as they

are having some kind of other major electrical spasm take out several

screens at once.  Lightning and static come to mind, but maybe there's

something else.



In 1000 hours we've had one gyro failure of the Dynon, one internal

power supply failure that blanked the AFS EFIS, an knob failure that

hobbled the AFS, three failures of a 696 that required return to the

factory, and an intermittent failure of our 530W that needed return to

the factory.  All these happened at different times and didn't affect

one another.  That is, any of these failures wouldn't have been

catastrophic in IMC.  But with so many different kinds of failures,

all with plenty of power on board, it just kind of seems like a matter

of time until the blank screens overlap.



What do you guys thinks about staying level with mechanical airspeed,

altitude, compass, and TC?  Without an attitude indicator?  I don't

recall having too hard a time with that during IFR training, and I'm

far from SuperPilot.



Dave Saylor

831-750-0284 CL

On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 11:11 AM, Carl Froehlich

<carl.froehlich(at)verizon.net> wrote:

[quote] 



 I ratcheted though this thought process awhile back and ending up firmly on the "no spinning gyro" answer.



 I started with a very expensive RC Allen electric AI in my 8A. Â It started to go south at 200 hours and I had to pull it shortly thereafter. Â I now have a Dynon D10A in its place that been flawless for the last 500+ hours. Â This set the stage for my choice of a dual SkyView EFIS install (with primary and back up ADHRS) in the RV-10. Â Considering my experience and others I have engaged, the reliability of dual EFIS and dual ADHRS far exceeds that of spinning gyros.



 Note however that I have taken steps to mitigate against electrical failure from taking down both EFIS systems. Â If you have a single power distribution scheme and don't want to change it, then vacuum gyros may be the way to go.



 Also of note, while the FARs state you must have a "magnetic heading reference", this has been interpreted by the Washington FSDO office as a wet compass. Â They did not wish to justify that policy, but since I wanted them to sign off my plane I decided not to push the point (and I got the sign off last Wednesday!).



 Carl



 --

Strasnuts

Joined: 10 Feb 2009
Posts: 502
Location: Salt Lake City, UT

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:46 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Well said. 



Satellite weather is great for big picture and preflight planning. Picking your way through is done with on board radar and a strike finder/stormscope,which of course we don't have in a ten unless someone has installed one. Not many of us in a ten should be picking our way through I guess. 



Sent from my iPhone



On May 25, 2012, at 12:06, "DLM" <dlm34077(at)q.com> wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   Back when I flew hard IFR, the thing that was most helpful was the Strikefinder. Those were the days when some federal judge "found" that digital and analog technologies were patent infringing. With some effort one was installed and the aircraft was flown where the lightning strikes were not. Smooth ride even though the rain was so heavy that water came in the doors. The delay in the Sat WX processing seems to cause some confusion about where not to fly. Looking forward to ADS-B install and FAA installation completion. I will still be wary the delay. Fog is not a problem; usually smooth ride but LIFR conditions.

_________________
40936
RV-10 SB N801VR Flying
780 Hours
SuperSTOL 60 hours

jchang10

Joined: 05 Jul 2006
Posts: 227

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 11:59 am Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Great write-up Tim with pictures and all! I can't imagine anyone 

purposefully flying into those kinds of build-ups, at least not twice, 

anyway.



Out here in CA, can you believe lots of people have never ever seen a 

heavy thunderstorm or even seen or heard lightning before? It is such a 

rare event here, it is kind of amusing.



Jae



-- 



#40533 RV-10

First flight 10/19/2011

Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

do not archive

On 5/25/2012 11:39 AM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In reading Jesse's follow up post, I think he and I approach it

 basically the same. Having lightning strike data is awesome.

 You then know you have a very convective and strong cell or line.

_________________
#40533 RV-10
First flight 10/19/2011
Phase 1 Done 11/26/2011

dlm34077(at)q.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:04 pm Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

Another possible solution. If its really  bad and you are going, you can sometimes follow the airlines since they have the  equipment. I was setting in the aircraft at the Cessna factory one stormy night  and contacted ICT approach to go to KICT to spend the night instead of flying to  KTUL. As I talked with the controller I heard him vectoring a B727 toward KTUL  at 6000msl. I said. Can I have one of those? Sure! Cleared as filed! I followed  the track of the Boeing to KTUL. 



-----Original  Message-----

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com (owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com)]  On Behalf Of Bill Watson

Sent: Friday, May 25, 2012 11:43 AM

To:  rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: GRT Panel  Layout



--> RV10-List message posted by: Bill Watson  <Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com>



I'm no expert but living in the SE,  convection, cumulus, and T-storms are almost daily occurences in the summer  somewhere along your trip. 

Twenty miles just won't let you get anywhere  in this part of the country.



Here in the SE, getting up as high as you  can w/o O2 will usually allow you to fly among the tops.  Even if they  aren't raining or lightening (yet), it's best to stay out of them unless you can  clearly see what's going on the other side and if don't mind being bumped  around. 

Controllers issue deviations freely... especially where and  when you need them most, e.g.  JAX center in FL.



For short flights,  it's often equally effective to stay below cloud base and just fly around the  rain shafts.  But this depends on having a clear look at the buildups on  top of the rain shafts.  If it's overcast and convective (imbedded storms),  that just doesn't work whether you stay below or fly in the clouds.  Even  with Nexrad, there's no reason to be flying around or underneath imbedded  convective storms in my opinion.



I would say no one purposely goes into a  convective storm anymore including the airlines.  But there's a lot of very  informed flying around them these days.  I guess the big guys all have  radar and Nexrad and most of us little guys have Nexrad (and before that Cheap  Bastard). 

It works very well... especially if you stay  visual.



Coming home last week I was flying between big buildups north of  Charlotte at 11k.  Staying visual forced me towards a waypoint that all the  traffic in the KCLT seemed to be crossing at 11k.  Sure enough, it was on a  commonly used STAR.  I listened to plane after plane ask for deviations as  they came into the waypoint, but then they'd cross it and proceed in.  I  was forced to ask for the same treatment but the controllers didn't want me  crossing the arrival point along with the airliners, especially at a 90degree  angle to the other traffic.  I told them I could stay 3 miles away from it  and still get thru the break in the buildups and that seemed to work for  them.  Funny thing is that I never saw another plane during the passage  (and my ADS-B was only showing some of the storm and no traffic at that  moment).  But I ended up flying less than a mile away from the buildups as  I squeezed thru. 

There were occassional flashes and it was clearly  raining below them but they were slow builders with almost no movement and it  turned out fine.



For me, the key is staying visual on convective days but  I will fly close to buildups depending on how stuff looks.  Sometimes you  get

surprised a bit as I did out in AZ recently.   Things are  bigger,

higher, and faster out there and I still need to calibrate my  eyeballs a bit better for western conditions.



Bill "a thunderstorm is  just a grown up thermal having a tantrum" Watson

On 5/25/2012 1:07  PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   -->  RV10-List message posted by:  Dave

 -->  Saylor<dave.saylor.aircrafters(at)gmail.com>



 This is a great  discussion for me since the only weather we ever

 really see at home is  fog.  Since I don't have much T-storm

 experience, I was told to  give them 20 miles.  Is that too

             Navigator  much much  href="http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List">http://www.matronicp;     the Web  href="http://forums.matronics.com">http://forums.matronics.com

_p;          generous  bsp;                     href="http://www.matronics.com/contribution">http://www.matronics.com/c=================
	


   [quote][b]

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:21 pm Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I feel the same way about most of what Tim said except one thing. If I'm going more than 50nm or so, I file IFR. It's probably because of where I live, with Orlando, Tampa, Jacksonville, Atlanta, etc airspace involved in most of my flights, as well as military airspaces everywhere. I find it easier to start IFR and ask for deviations than to go VFR and risk getting caught in IMC. I often hear ATC pointing out areas of moderate to extreme precipitation and giving me 10-20 degrees left or right of course long before I ask for them. When I ask for them they almost always give them. I also sometimes have to play the card, "I'll just cancel and go VFR" to get them to give me the needed deviation. It seems they would much rather shuffle things a little bit with a known quantity than to have VFR traffic that may turn any direction at any time. I will not fly into big CB clouds, but if I know I'm going to only be in it and bumping for 10-20 seconds, I'll stay on course. Otherwise I would be zig-zagging like crazy on a typical summer day. 20nm from CB is nice, but is often not an option, as Tim mentioned. 

Sorry if this was a little scatterbrained, but I just woke up from a nap after driving from Fl to Indy almost nonstop. Yes, I actually drove. The -10 is a little tight for 8, even if 7 of them are small. Who does my cousin think he is, getting married to a girl that isn't from Florida?!

Do not archive. 

Jesse Saint

I-TEC, Inc.

jesse(at)itecusa.org

www.itecusa.org

www.mavericklsa.com

C: 352-427-0285

O: 352-465-4545

F: 815-377-3694

Sent from my iPhone

On May 25, 2012, at 2:39 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 In reading Jesse's follow up post, I think he and I approach it

 basically the same. Having lightning strike data is awesome.

 You then know you have a very convective and strong cell or line.

 So, I avoid where the strikes are, and use that as part of

 my plan as I weave around.  Also, tops.  If the tops are

 calling 20K' or so, I know they're going to be big. I don't

 want to fly through that, even if it's not red and I'm on

 an IFR plan.  To me, bumps are never fun.  Also, even when you're

 only looking at 10,000' tops, when you fly through them you

 often hit a bump as you enter and get bumped around inside...but

 if you stay out of the visible cloud, you get a smoother ride.

 As you talk about fog, I think that is really the better IFR

 conditions.  The downside is that fog is often to the ground.

 Where I live, we often get PERFECT IFR type conditions for fun.

 500'-2000' ceilings of stratus layers, where you can get on

 top.  That's the kind of IFR I don't mind.  I don't want

 to mess with IFR if it's convective.  Under it isn't fun,

 but I'll go under if the tops aren't high.  But if they're

 higher buildups, I use my WX equipment to get me AROUND the

 weather.  I wouldn't file IFR if I can go VFR easily,

 because then I can deviate all I want without requests.

 I'd be happy to go VFR Flight Following or IFR, but only

 if they're happy to give me the leeway to make course changes

 every 10-20 miles so I can weave around. Convective buildups

 just aren't good for flying in...and by using that as my

 concept in a plan, it really helps keep you out of trouble

 somewhat.  The times it bites is if the widely scattered

 clouds turn into broken, and you have a harder time maintaining

 ground contact...when that sneaks up on you, you're better

 off having been or being on an IFR plan already so you

 can plug along...but plan on making deviations.

 As far as 20nm being too conservative, I would not be able to

 say that is true. I think the 20nm recommendation is a

 healthy safety margin and think it's good to promote it

 as such.  The fact is though, that it can really depend.

 If you're talking buildups that aren't precipitating,

 you can basically just fly right by them.  If they're

 precipitating, then you have to pay close attention.

 Are there lighting strikes?  What are the tops? What

 colors do you see....Red? Pink?  These are indicators

 of it being pretty nasty inside. Those are best to

 avoid by as much as you can.  20nm though is sometimes

 not workable if there are lots of small separate cells,

 so you either have to land, deviate, or come up with

 some other plan. For me, part of the key is what

 you will be flying directly underneath.  They want you

 to keep 20nm away because stuff comes out of those

 clouds.  Lightning can reach out a little ways as Jesse

 said.  Hail can lift up and fall out around it too.

 But, if you are able to keep perfectly blue skies above

 your head, 20nm can be more than you need.  This isn't

 saying the recommendation isn't good.  It just may be

 that you can do closer without too much concern.

 Check out this really awful screenshot:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611160341.html

 Notice all the areas where there is NOTHING, but suddenly

 an intense yellow area with red...some were really

 strong.  But, they were all over heck...and in my way.

 Well, IFR, I would have probably packed it in for the

 day and landed.  But, since it was daylight and I was

 VFR, and could see out the window fine, I got to play

 ball.

 Here is a picture out the window:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611163547.html

 Notice the overhang on the cloud cell.  But, I'm in clear skies.

 My goal at that time was to A) keep ground contact by flying

 in the valleys between anything big.  B) Keep OUT from that

 overhanging cloud.  As long as I could keep a couple miles

 out under perfect blue skies, it was a good ride. I didn't

 want any hail falling on me, and I didn't see any lightning.

 I was closer than 20 miles, but wasn't close enough that

 we would be affected by the cloud.

 Now going further along the trip, here's another screenshot near

 that area.

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611164520.html

 Here's the view out the window:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/Trips/2011_East_Coast/RV20110611164500.html

 You can see that the gap between the cells may have been 20 miles

 or so, but there was nothing overhanging the cell, and it was

 visibly clear above me, and I was far enough from the cells that

 we had no effect.  This was closer than I'd have wanted, and

 you know darn well I was watching very very close keeping

 track of the ground, the weather on the OTHER side of the gap

 (could something build up and block me from continuing?), and

 what the conditions were.  This wasn't a time for IFR, and I'd

 have been causing ATC a pain in the butt with VFR flight following.

 But as long as I was in clear skies, no overhead clouds, and

 it was a smooth ride, it was easily doable.  For someone

 not used to flying around that stuff, might be best to ease

 into it...but we get that all the time up here.

 To show you a picture of a day that will make you pull your hair

 out, check this one out:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20090819/RV20090814160153.html

 It came from this write-up, btw:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20090819/index.html

 The funny thing is, by staying VFR and knowing exactly

 what you were flying in, it was doable.  Again, if you're not

 from an area that has these conditions, it's worth easing

 into it.  But, the trip actually went well.

 From a different trip, this pic shows something easy to go through:

 http://www.myrv10.com/N104CD/flights/20080901/SD200809012686.html

 So it all depends on a lot of factors, really.  There are times

 when 20nm will be a very good yardstick. Each situation is

 different.

 Although I don't have a spinning gyro, if you fly IFR,

 I would say that would be your BEST way to go for a backup.

 Would be nice to be lightning proof and p-static proof,

 and everything else.  So, while I don't have that in

 my plane, I do think that's the best way to go.  Having another

 EFIS as a backup really is an inferior backup...and anyone

 that believes otherwise is just being defensive and not

 owning up to reality.  I don't have a spinning gyro in

 my plane, so yes, with that statement made, it's deficient.

 That's not a slam on y'all, either.  I'm just saying that

 if you're flying IFR, it's BEST to have a spinning gyro backup.

 There are downsides to it too, especially from a maintenance

 perspective...but it would be the best choice.  Something

 that can't get taken out by lightning, doesn't use software,

 and can keep you upright with no electricity.

 Anyway, weather is a pretty interesting subject to talk about,

 because opinions vary, even looking at the same cloud.

 My major concern is I want smooth air, no hail, no lightning,

 and to get where I'm going.

 Tim

 Do not archive

 On 5/25/2012 12:07 PM, Dave Saylor wrote:

> 

> 

> This is a great discussion for me since the only weather we ever

> really see at home is fog.  Since I don't have much T-storm

> experience, I was told to give them 20 miles.  Is that too

> conservative?

> 

> Along the same lines, there's a line of reasoning that says that EFIS

> should be backed up with spinning gyro instruments.  Gyros would

> theoretically be less susceptible to a lightning strike or other major

> electrical issue.  I have a D-10A as my backup, and I'm starting to

> wonder about it.  We're designing a panel as I type and I'm

> considering going with a turn coordinator, airspeed, altimeter, and

> wet compass as the mechanical backups.  I'm thinking that most of us

> did some partial panel training with a failed attitude indicator, and

> using the remaining "five-pack" works OK.  Not great, but OK, and

> maybe the TC will be a little more reliable than an electric attitude

> indicator.  I haven't had great luck with them.

> 

> I'm interested in what you all think about that scheme.

> 

> Dave Saylor

> 831-750-0284 CL

> 

> 

> On Fri, May 25, 2012 at 9:40 AM, Jesse Saint<jesse(at)saintaviation.com>  wrote:

>> 

>> 

>> My point exactly. I actually have seen lightning as much as about 5nm (estimated) away from the CB clouds when skirting a squall line before, but if you look at a NEXRAD and Strikes overlay, the strikes are almost exclusively in the red. I fly through green as often as necessary, yellow to avoid huge detours, and NEVER red. I don't mind flying through building clouds with tops up to maybe 12,000-15,000 ft or so, but avoid towering cumulous much above that. I also try to avoid flying under that stuff for the same reasons and because it's usually pretty bumpy, although sometimes its necessary for takeoff and landing. I would certainly much sooner go high and pick my way between the tops before going under to get past a line.

>> 

>> Jesse Saint

>> I-TEC, Inc.

>> jesse(at)itecusa.org

>> www.itecusa.org

>> www.mavericklsa.com

>> C: 352-427-0285

>> O: 352-465-4545

>> F: 815-377-3694

>> 

>> Sent from my iPhone

>> 

>> On May 25, 2012, at 10:12 AM, Tim Olson<Tim(at)myrv10.com>  wrote:

>> 

>>> 

>>> 

>>> I'd agree with that...it really depends.  There are many times in the

>>> summer that you'll get lines of stuff or many splotches scattered,

>>> of popup cells. (Lines are usually worse)  I've found that it's

>>> usually best to stay VFR on those days....save the IFR for layers

>>> and for wide areas of rain.  So you stay VFR, but you end up

>>> flying surprisingly nice air weaving between all of the buildups.

>>> I am careful not to get where there are clouds overhead, because

>>> then you have no idea what's above you that could fall (hail)

>>> out of the cloud.  But I've had many trips where I had to

>>> weave through buildups to get places, and it didn't feel

>>> especially dangerous at all.  At the same time, I don't think

>>> lightning would be likely to jump out to where I was either.

>>> 

>>> But, I think if you're flying IFR through rain clouds, you'd

>>> have more worry about lightning even if it's only mildly

>>> convective, and probably what's more of a concern than lightning

>>> is P-static.  You'll be far more likely to be affected by

>>> P-static flying IFR than lighting, because as Thane States states

>>> (fun to say) you probably will be avoiding the convective

>>> stuff as much as possible anyway, and definitely you'll be

>>> staying out of the worrysome convective stuff.

>>> 

>>> On my screens, I've found Green is usually good, yellow

>>> is usually doable, and with WSI at least, it's been

>>> pretty darn accurate with minimal delay, so easy

>>> to navigate past.  Red, is bad (or so I'd think), but I've

>>> never flown through it to find out.

>>> 

>>> Tim

>> 

>>

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:58 pm Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

 	  Quote: 	
		   Satellite weather is great for big picture and preflight planning. Picking your way through is done with on board radar and a strike finder/stormscope,which of course we don't have in a ten unless someone has installed one. Not many of us in a ten should be picking our way through I guess.



I have a different view, though it may be ill informed because I have 
	


flown with neither radar or a strikefinder.



I've found what I'll call "nexrad" weather displays, whether from XM or 

ADS-B, to be outstanding tools for picking my way thru storms.  To be 

clear, I'm not talking about flying in IMC and trying to pick my way 

thru soft spots.  I am talking about flying IFR but mainly staying 

visual when near storms and using the slightly delayed Nexrad images, 

along with altitude, to avoid storms and move towards my destination.



This works very well for me in typical spring/summer/fall conditions on 

the east coast, particularly the in the south east.  It doesn't really 

work VFR because it's too difficult to get up over cloud base and too 

risky getting trapped above an undercast.



As stated, Nexrad works best in getting the big picture but it also 

works quite well in seeing any area of precipitation and can be used 

quite effectively in tactical storm avoidance.



At times, Nexrad in the cockpit is superior to radar.  I've listened 

while the jets were trying to figure out where and how to penetrate a 

line when I could see quite clearly on my G396 that an end-around would 

work  just fine.  Radar just can't see around corners.  Having said 

that, I'm sure based on what I've been told that you can't beat radar in 

most situations.  I'm also under the impression that the jet crowd now 

universally has Nexrad either in the newer panels or on a portable that 

they never leave home without.



In FL where the daily buildups can be both big and numerous, the trick 

is often just knowing whether to deviate left or right around the next 

cloud so you don't get boxed in by 2 or 3 others on the other side.  

When I was flying with the elegant pre-396 Cheap Bastard product 

(involving an unholy alliance between a Palm pilot, an RF network, VOR 

locations, and a rogue server somewhere) it was a revelation for both 

the JAX controllers and I when I was able to correctly ask for the best 

deviation in my little Maule, "How did you know that, do you have radar 

in that thing?".  30 to 45 mins old Nexrad images were worth their 

weight in gold when dealing with (Indy) controllers who often don't have 

time for vector advice.



Where Nexrad-only may not work well is when closing in on a 

destination.  If the storms and the clouds go right down to <1000 AGL 

like they often do in FL, you may not be able to stay visual while 

getting to the airport.  A 10 minute old Nexrad image is not the best 

tool to penetrate with.  Best to go somewhere else and wait it out.  If 

you can get under it in the clear, then you can use the Nexrad and your 

eyeballs to assess the situation and hopefully get to the destination.



If you stay out of the buildups, then it seems to me only 2 things can 

really ruin your day; lightning and hail.  I know what hail can look 

like and I try not to ever see that sight again.  Lightning I don't 

understand but I feel safer in the air than standing around on the airport.



After several steps forward (Cheap Bastard, XM on the 396, XM on the 

GRT) I feel like I've taken a step backwards with ADS-B on the GRT.  

When it's there, it's as good as the XM on the GRT.  But it's not always 

there (out west) and is frustratingly sporadic at the darndest times 

(Asheville NC during storms).



Anyway, that's my experience so far,

Bill Watson

:

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2881

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 5:28 pm Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I've been trying to make that point over and over, but most people

can't see past the $dollar signs$.  ADS-B is AWESOME to add to

a panel for traffic.  (Bested of course by active traffic) It's

also fantastic to have for WX for "free".  But, I would not want

it as my ONLY WX.  For the RV-10, which is a serious X/C machine,

you want more serious WX if you travel X/C a lot.  You will

NOT get coverage everywhere, even when it's fully rolled out.

You will also NOT get coverage down low in some spots.  There

will be areas in the US where you need to be >5000'AGL to get

coverage, or more.  That means you can't sit on the ramp in

a large percentage of airports and see if that storm bearing

down on you is close, or what it's doing.  That means that

you often will have to launch into iffy skies, only knowing

what you either A) have on your ipad right now, or B) saw

in the FBO when you were there (if they were open).

For me, that's a deal breaker.  It's worth the $30-50/mo to

get my WSI Wx as my primary WX.  It's also well worth it to

have it on my PRIMARY instruments.  ADS-B WX would be a great

addition for an iPad, or for your secondary EFIS if you have

one.  May as well outfit with it with the price as low as it

is.  But it is not, and never will be, a substitute for

satellite based weather products.

Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

do not archive

On 5/25/2012 6:58 PM, Bill Watson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   After several steps forward (Cheap Bastard, XM on the 396, XM on the

 GRT) I feel like I've taken a step backwards with ADS-B on the GRT.

 When it's there, it's as good as the XM on the GRT.  But it's not always

 there (out west) and is frustratingly sporadic at the darndest times

 (Asheville NC during storms).

Mauledriver(at)nc.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 7:49 pm Post subject: GRT Panel Layout

I too am a bit blinded by the $$.  Will have to re-think this.



Yesterday I ran over to a close by airport (30 miles) to do a radio 

swap.  Had to avoid strong rain showers coming and going.  Didn't have 

ADSb weather going over until in the pattern.  Was told there is an ADSb 

antenna on the airport.  Had weather on the ground and traffffic on 

takeoff.  Maintained it all the way home.  I'm going to have to learn 

more about how this stuff works and doesn't work.  It should perform 

better than that.



Bill "ADS-B is not so awesome but traffic and nexrad is" Watson

do not archive



On 5/25/2012 9:26 PM, Tim Olson wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I've been trying to make that point over and over, but most people

 can't see past the $dollar signs$.  ADS-B is AWESOME to add to

 a panel for traffic.  (Bested of course by active traffic) It's

 also fantastic to have for WX for "free".  But, I would not want

 it as my ONLY WX.  For the RV-10, which is a serious X/C machine,

 you want more serious WX if you travel X/C a lot.  You will

 NOT get coverage everywhere, even when it's fully rolled out.

 You will also NOT get coverage down low in some spots.  There

 will be areas in the US where you need to be >5000'AGL to get

 coverage, or more.  That means you can't sit on the ramp in

 a large percentage of airports and see if that storm bearing

 down on you is close, or what it's doing.  That means that

 you often will have to launch into iffy skies, only knowing

 what you either A) have on your ipad right now, or B) saw

 in the FBO when you were there (if they were open).

 For me, that's a deal breaker.  It's worth the $30-50/mo to

 get my WSI Wx as my primary WX.  It's also well worth it to

 have it on my PRIMARY instruments.  ADS-B WX would be a great

 addition for an iPad, or for your secondary EFIS if you have

 one.  May as well outfit with it with the price as low as it

 is.  But it is not, and never will be, a substitute for

 satellite based weather products.

 Tim Olson - RV-10 N104CD

 do not archive

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: GRT Panel Layout

For the VFR vs IFR (but in VMC) debate, don't forget the third option:  file IFR and if the controller won't allow your requested deviation, ask for VFR on top at 500' above your altitude, assuming you are in VMC. Controller will be happy because he's relieved of separation responsibility; you'll be happy because you're still in the system, so if the weather goes below VFR just call them up to get back to a "real" IFR clearance. This also works to avoid routing you don't want. Of course you need VMC.



As to the partial panel question: yes I think it can be done, but:

In this emergency have you also lost pitch trim? (no power?). Flying pp without pitch trim is a handful. I think you'd have to fly the approach at unusually high speed, whatever indicated speed the plane was trimmed for when power was lost.

Also, Murphy's law dictates that this failure will happen in turbulence, where the TC will be rocking back and forth, you'll need to average by eye. I think the basic roll stability of the -10 is just sufficient for this, I wouldn't want to be forced to do it in an RV-7.



Does anyone know the current draw of a typical turn coordinator? Is it feasible to run it off a small backup battery for, say, two hours?

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

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