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symmetrical panel and backup

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dlm34077(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 4:55 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two

different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and

backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software;

GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that

will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s

on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and

balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the

shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV

commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a

source selection switch for the AP.



My two cents

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Kelly McMullen

Joined: 16 Apr 2008
Posts: 1188
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 6:30 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup.



It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: "DLM" <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)>

 

 If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two

 different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and

 backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software;

 GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that

 will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s

 on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and

 balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the

 shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV

 commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a

 source selection switch for the AP.

 

 My two cents

 

 

 ---

 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

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 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

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 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

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 [b]

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor
KCHD

wgreenley

Joined: 09 Jan 2010
Posts: 100
Location: Dowagiac, MI

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 6:46 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

Trying to figure out how to keep backups in perspective. While building my 10 I am still flying my ’56 Cessna 172. Flew home yesterday IFR. One engine, one alternator, one main ships battery. Two radios, one powering a VOR/ILS/LOC head, and one a VOR. Had a tablet GPS on the yoke, and a backup tablet in the bag, no auto pilot. I know pilots that have been flying like this for years, even before the portable GPS’s. Does it seem that we get a little carried away with backups? I am still trying to decide on a panel, but leaning towards two G3X’s, and a mini-B each with batteries, autopilot controlled by the G3X’s. No round dials. This seems like so much more backup than I have now, even still with one ships battery and alternator.

Bill Greenley

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 10:27 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: symmetrical panel and backup

 

There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup.



It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup.



 

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: "DLM" <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)>



If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two

different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and

backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software;

GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that

will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s

on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and

balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the

shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV

commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a

source selection switch for the AP.



My two cents

---

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===========

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========





 

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  [quote][b]

EdKranz

Joined: 29 Dec 2010
Posts: 132
Location: Hastings, MN

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 6:54 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

I do have a TCW IBBS backup battery that will power the MFD (which will drop into reversionary mode), engine monitor, one of the adahrs (along with the mag and temp probe), and the autopilot panel. The AP servos are NOT powered by the backup battery, but the autopilot panel will give me a flight director, so I will become the "meat servo". The MFD is also an XM enabled unit, so I'll even still have weather and some good tunes incase I get bored during the emergency! The backup battery will only be needed after the primary alternator, secondary 30 amp alternator, and the main ships battery fail.



Additionally, if there is a CANBUS failure, the adahrs are both connected with a secondary RS232 connection to the PFD and MFD, helping me to keep the shiny side up.

I have thought a LOT about systems redundancy. As an IT Systems Admin, it's part of my day job. I've designed as many of the systems to have redundancy, sometimes even dual and triple redundancy, as practical. The last big piece is going to be having a completely different brand backup PFD. Like I said before, I'm leaning towards a battery operated, GPS derived, self contained unit like a Dynon D1, as it isn't dependent on ANY of the other systems in the plane, like power or pitot/static.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com (apilot2(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

[quote]There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup.



It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup.

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: "DLM" <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)>

 

 If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two

 different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and

 backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software;

 GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that

 will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s

 on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and

 balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the

 shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV

 commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a

 source selection switch for the AP.

 

 My two cents

 

 

 ---

 This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

 http://www.avast.com

 

 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 	


   	  Quote: 	
		  



get="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

tp://forums.matronics.com

_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution



	




[b]

_________________
Ed Kranz
RV10
Finishing
www.edandcolleen.com

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

I agree that the landscape has changed since I made my panel decision 8 years ago.  Then my backup was a Blue Mountain….when it crapped out I went to a third GRT screen…….then replaced that with a GRT sport.  Different enough to solve the same technology problem, but yet runs just like my other GRT system and thus no learning curve or retraining time caused by two unique systems.

 

I also have three 2.5” steam gauges.  With that I should be able to get out of the soup even if everything else goes tango uniform.

 

I have two batteries, but that was more to move the CG forward than the actual need for a second battery.

 

Rene'

801-721-6080

 

From: owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] On Behalf Of Kelly McMullen

Sent: Friday, May 29, 2015 8:27 AM

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: symmetrical panel and backup



 

There are several "mini-EFIS" available today that were not on the market 7-8 yrs ago. Even if you select the same brand as the main EFIS, the operating software is different. You have to decide whether you want same logic or being able to know the ins and outs of two different brand philosophies, and whether you want more Tees in your pitot static system to leak, or a GPS derived attitude, altitude and airspeed as backup.



It appears the autopilot market has evolved to where the leading EFIS have integrated autopilots, and backup batteries for each screen. Having a separate autopilot generally adds several grand in cost. However, most autopilots, whether separate or integrated will fail if they don't have electrons to power them, as most use electric servos. One does have to decide whether to wear 2 belts and 1 or two suspenders to have enough backup.



 

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 5:51 AM, DLM <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)> wrote:

--> RV10-List message posted by: "DLM" <dlm34077(at)gmail.com (dlm34077(at)gmail.com)>



If you are seriously interested in backup for IFR in IMC, you need two

different EFIS systems and an autopilot with internal solid state gyros and

backup batteries. My solution is Chelton primary with FAA level A software;

GRT Sport/software (mini is now available) for backup and a Trutrak AP that

will also fly the aircraft albeit not extremely precisely. I have three 680s

on board although the last was added on the firewall more for weight and

balance purposes. In essence I have three systems all capable of keeping the

shiny side up. The AP can accept LNAV/VNAV commands from the Chelton, LNAV

commands from the GRT and fly the aircraft independently depending on a

source selection switch for the AP.



My two cents

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

http://www.avast.com

===========

-List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

===========

FORUMS -

_blank">http://forums.matronics.com

===========

b Site -

          -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

===========





 

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		    http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List 	
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2 	  Quote: 	
		   	
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  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 7:28 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

I think the answer is both Yes and No to your question:

"Does it seem that we get a little carried away with backups? "



There is one big difference with having old avionics

and new.  With the old, you could, for instance, lose

your attitude indicator, but still keep the wings fairly

level with the turn coordinator.  Things weren't so very

integrated. With EFIS's, it would be much easier to lose

a component and lost all or most of your data.  If

your screen goes dark, you're now "lost". And, I would

venture to say that many or most pilots on a good day

won't be diligent enough to have things like a VOR

tuned in on a radio, while they are just flying using

their GPS.  I once lost GPS (in my old plane) while

X/C on a sunny day, VFR, no clouds, but at the time

my only sure knowledge was that I was somewhere in

Tennessee, East of Memphis....because honestly hadn't

really been paying close attention to exactly where I was.

Being VFR it certainly wasn't an emergency, but suddenly

I was faced with "Where they heck exactly am I, so that

I can start replanning my route via something other

than "direct"?  It gets your attention how reliant

you are on your primary tools.



Now, that doesn't necessarily mean you have to go all

out on backups.  But I wouldn't want to be without

any, if you have an EFIS system.



Even for IFR flight though, I'm *mostly* comfortable

with the idea of more minimal backups.  First, it's

of utmost importance to be able to keep the plane

upright, and headed in a consistent direction, even

if you don't know that direction exactly.

If you can do that, you're far better off.

Next, having an independent Nav/COM and indicator

that you can use to tune a VOR, would be a nice thing.

An ipad, if it isn't a GPS issue, could be a VERY nice

thing.  But I don't think you need a ton more than that.

The fact is, you're best off at that point, laying

it all on the table and calling ATC and letting them

know you have an issue, and ask for their help.

With them giving you vectors, you can accomplish

a whole lot on minimal backups.  It may not be

enough to get you to the runway in the lowest conditions,

but it may help a lot.  But having an iPad with a

good EFB and enough backup equipment could get you through

most approaches I would believe....provided you have

enough primary gauges to keep the plane headed the

right direction.



One thing to keep in mind too...sometimes your backups

can be found in unusual places.  I put in 3 round

gauges in my RV10, but now realized for the RV-14 that

2 of them are available on my engine monitor, which is

standalone. (Airspeed and Altitude and even VSI)

So, I really mostly need a good Attitude display.



The biggest problem I have with IFR is people who would say,

"I want to fly IFR but not 'HARD' IFR, only use it to

get through ceilings."  As far as I'm concerned, getting

the rating and USING it, means staying proficient enough

that you should be able to perform all normal approaches

for your aircraft.  Ceilings change, conditions change, and

if you're going to launch anywhere that takes you out of

sight of terra firma, you should be fully prepared to do

whatever it takes to bring you safely back.  Having the

proper attitude about that, and staying proficient,

will be very important.



I did have an awesome fun IFR flight this weekend.  It

would have been a pain without my EFIS.  I think I could

have done it, but it would have been a much bigger

chore.  I need to do a couple more practice approaches

soon, so I'll try them without the EFIS this time and

see if I can do it.



I did post a video of that flight if you're interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFmZJVXUTd0



Tim

do not archive





On 5/29/2015 9:41 AM, William Greenley wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Trying to figure out how to keep backups in perspective. While building

 my 10 I am still flying my ’56 Cessna 172. Flew home yesterday IFR. One

 engine, one alternator, one main ships battery. Two radios, one powering

 a VOR/ILS/LOC head, and one a VOR. Had a tablet GPS on the yoke, and a

 backup tablet in the bag, no auto pilot. I know pilots that have been

 flying like this for years, even before the portable GPS’s. Does it seem

 that we get a little carried away with backups? I am still trying to

 decide on a panel, but leaning towards two G3X’s, and a mini-B each with

 batteries, autopilot controlled by the G3X’s. No round dials. This seems

 like so much more backup than I have now, even still with one ships

 battery and alternator.



 Bill Greenley

Rocketman1988

Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 63

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 8:30 am Post subject: Re: symmetrical panel and backup

Tim



Very well said. 



I also agree that the "hard" IFR thing is misused.  You really need to be proficient in any IFR situation.  Also, your BEST friend in IFR is ATC.  You should NEVER be afraid or embarrassed to use them.



Listening to everyone's opinion on what you HAVE to have to safely fly IFR really makes me chuckle.  Have you guys looked at the ancient panels and systems in the airliners that carry you across the country and all over the world?



They just updated the database in my work jet...using a single sided floppy disk...it took almost a half an hour...



A plumber friend once told me something.  He said, "The more complicated the plumbing is, the easier it is to stop it up." I think at some point, that statement applies here...

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 9:01 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant.  All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers, three altimeters, three air speed indicators...  Sure, they may have no glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event.



I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in case the primary systems glitch.  And I've seen enough bugs in the software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make me want options.



I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass.  Sure, I trained for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than that.

  [quote][b]

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 10:47 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

The one thing I'd note is that when planning an EFIS system, yes,

there are times when it may be nice to have more than one

manufacturer in the panel for those primary gauges.

But, don't fall victim to going too far with that.

I would spend as much as you need to get your primary system

fully up to par and integrated.  Then just add the 2nd system

as a more stand-alone device.  The issue you will run into

sometimes is panel space.  Don't sacrifice too much of your

panel space of what you want for the primary just to give it

to backups.  And don't do something like pick one EFIS brand

for one side and one for the other side.  You'll never be

as happy with how it all integrates.  This isn't saying you

SHOULDN'T have backups or varied vendors, but just saying

not to short your primary for the purpose of having a bigger

backup.  You can have all the backup you need without

all that much space taken up.

Tim

On 5/29/2015 11:59 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant.

 All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three

 fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two

 completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers,

 three altimeters, three air speed indicators...  Sure, they may have no

 glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full

 of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an

 operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system

 failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event.



 I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I

 really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in

 case the primary systems glitch.  And I've seen enough bugs in the

 software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to

 much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make

 me want options.



 I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying

 IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an

 approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass.  Sure, I trained

 for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my

 own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than

 that.

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 11:10 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

Tim: All good points, and no way I would split primary EFIS displays across vendors.  The 3-screen 10" G3X touch system really does, I think, start to push the issue of it being possible to have the backup you want and the primary displays that you want.  The 3 screen G3X just isn't going to leave enough room for something like the GRT-mini as a backup, which leaves me struggling a bit with the tradeoffs.   I think the 3 screens are probably worth it for the primary use case, as a GRT-mini just takes up space without providing anything useful as long as the primary works.  A 3rd G3X is going to be enormously useful every day, but I'm just not sure what to do as a backup in that case, short of deciding that 3 G3X's are probably good enough.  And they probably are, but I keep going back to what happened to the F-22 when I envision software failures: http://www.dailytech.com/Lockheeds+F22+Raptor+Gets+Zapped+by+International+Date+Line/article6225.htm



Looking around at modern spam cans (Cessna 350, Mooney Acclaim, SR-22) , they all seem to be going with the 3 round gauges as backups...



On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 12:44 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

[quote]--> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>

 

 The one thing I'd note is that when planning an EFIS system, yes,

 there are times when it may be nice to have more than one

 manufacturer in the panel for those primary gauges.

 But, don't fall victim to going too far with that.

 I would spend as much as you need to get your primary system

 fully up to par and integrated.  Then just add the 2nd system

 as a more stand-alone device.  The issue you will run into

 sometimes is panel space.  Don't sacrifice too much of your

 panel space of what you want for the primary just to give it

 to backups.  And don't do something like pick one EFIS brand

 for one side and one for the other side.  You'll never be

 as happy with how it all integrates.  This isn't saying you

 SHOULDN'T have backups or varied vendors, but just saying

 not to short your primary for the purpose of having a bigger

 backup.  You can have all the backup you need without

 all that much space taken up.

 Tim

 

 

 On 5/29/2015 11:59 AM, Berck E. Nash wrote:

  	  Quote: 	
		   Those old airliners may be ancient, but they're also very redundant.

 All the transport category aircraft I've ever flown have at least three

 fully independent sources of attitude information, at least two

 completely separate pitot-static systems with two air data computers,

 three altimeters, three air speed indicators...  Sure, they may have no

 glass screens, and I flew plenty of turboprops across the country full

 of passengers using nothing but VOR/DME for navigation (often without an

 operable autopilot), but they were all designed so no single system

 failure on any of those planes would prove to be a major event.

 

 I don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I

 really do want something like the GRT mini (or even 3 round dials) in

 case the primary systems glitch.  And I've seen enough bugs in the

 software and electronics of airliners (which are built and tested to

 much higher standards than whatever I'll be putting in my RV-10) to make

 me want options.

 

 I know people do it all the time, but I'm just not comfortable flying

 IMC where the failure of a single vacuum pump can leave me shooting an

 approach with a turn coordinator and a whiskey compass.  Sure, I trained

 for it; I would probably survive, but part of the reason for building my

 own plane is so that I can affordably have a little more redundancy than

 that.

 

 	
 

 ===========

 -List" target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List

 ===========

  FORUMS -

 _blank">http://forums.matronics.com

 ===========

 b Site -

           -Matt Dralle, List Admin.

 target="_blank">http://www.matronics.com/contribution

 ===========

 

 

 

 



[b]

carl.froehlich(at)verizon
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 11:35 am Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

Looking over this thread it seems to me that it might be worthwhile defining

the objectives before looking at solution sets.



For a flat screen approach I want:

- Devices that integrate for capability

- Devices that do not rely on any single input

- Two displays in the event that one dies, each from an independent power

feed

- Each display can perform any function

- Two independent ADAHRS modules (or similar capability)

- Enough redundancy in power to the panel that a single failure will not

turn everything dark (e.g. no Avionics Master switch, no single master relay

to the battery or multiple batteries feeding a common buss, etc.)



There are a boatload of ways to achieve the above objectives, some more

complex (and costly) than others.  To Tim's point however, start off with

what you want for normal operations then see what it can/can't do for any

single failure mode that you can think of for the whole system.  For the

things you find unacceptable design in a back up.  The rest are managed.



I have two 10" displays, an analog airspeed and altimeter, two ADAHRS

modules, a second radio and two selectable ways to power each device.  A

loss of any single component will support continued, but perhaps reduced

capability IFR flight.  Example of a managed risk is if the Garmin 650 craps

out (as it already has) then I lose my certified IFR WAAS GPS and NAV.  I'd

be relying on the EFIS standalone GPS system so not legal for IFR but

perfectly fine for getting me on the ground - after I do the required report

to ATC.  



Carl



--

Tim Olson

Joined: 25 Jan 2007
Posts: 2882

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 12:07 pm Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

Yeah, you added some good info.   I'll expound on a couple more points.

First, and this may seem like an attack but it's not, and it may

seem like I'm biased because I'm a "don't have" guy, but I'm not.

But... I'm just not in the camp that thinks bigger glass is better.

At a certain point it just takes up more space.  I have 3 screens

and they give PLENTY of visibility, for the pilot, to all 3

of them, and they are maybe what, 1/3 the size of the big 10" ones?

Much easier to fit in the panel that way and much easier to have

*effective* backups.  And by that I mean not where you have to

have a backup instrument down by your fuel valve to be able to

fit one in.  I think Garmin had it right with the original

G3X screens, personally.  Those would be easy to fit into any

RV10 panel and have 3 screens.



But one very important addition I think is that if you are going for

a real complete backup solution, don't forget some of the details.

On my flight this last week, I had to do VTF for the ILS, and I

not only had my NAV1 used by my EFIS for displaying the ILS on the

EFIS, but I set NAV2 up as well, since it had been a while that

I did a real ILS (not for practice) and especially in low conditions.

I wanted that cross check with my Nav2.  But what made it even

POSSIBLE is that I had a CDI in my panel.  I know almost nobody

that seems to install a CDI anymore.  But, it was a welcome

instrument on that approach.  If you want to have a Nav2 and have

it be useable, you need at least a device that can display that

info.  In my RV-14 panel I just didn't have the room, so I

won't have a CDI.  That's Ok, I also won't have a NAV2.  But that

really changes my abilities in some situations.  When I was picking

through my approaches I could do, looking between 2 airports I

was going to be near, there was only one ILS, and I don't

remember for sure this detail but I don't think that there were

ANY other approaches at either airport that could bring you

lower than 300 or 400'.  Ceilings were just below 300.  GPS is

great, but at many airports you may not get the low approach

capability that you'd have with an ILS.  So equip as appropriate.

Now in a backup situation, in my RV-14, if I lost my NAV,

I'd have been stuck and had to go somewhere else...and with 300'

ceilings there isn't much available.  Time to hike it to another

airport maybe 30-45 minutes away.



Anyway, EFIS's are great, but don't overlook the other devices is

my main point.  A Dynon/GRT/Blue Mountain/Whatever may be a good

backup to a point.  But it may not give you everything.  Or, if you

have 2 NAV radios, it may be that you want a mini-efis that can

display the CDI on it too.  Just so many things to think about.



I was personally *considering* using a ipad with the Levil AHRS

as a backup instrument in the RV-14...but the caveat is that if

I depart on any flight where I may need it, I would have it

ready and running the whole flight.  I'm not sure sure it's

a great backup for a whole panel, but it's all I had real good

space for other than what round gauges supply.  And for that

matter, it's probably all I'd need.  The comment about most

production planes using round gauges is a good one.  They

go with those because they are a backup...and don't need to

be full featured.  But your flight style will change if you

should be using them.



Tim

On 5/29/2015 2:32 PM, Carl Froehlich wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 Looking over this thread it seems to me that it might be worthwhile defining

 the objectives before looking at solution sets.



 For a flat screen approach I want:

 - Devices that integrate for capability

 - Devices that do not rely on any single input

 - Two displays in the event that one dies, each from an independent power

 feed

 - Each display can perform any function

 - Two independent ADAHRS modules (or similar capability)

 - Enough redundancy in power to the panel that a single failure will not

 turn everything dark (e.g. no Avionics Master switch, no single master relay

 to the battery or multiple batteries feeding a common buss, etc.)



 There are a boatload of ways to achieve the above objectives, some more

 complex (and costly) than others.  To Tim's point however, start off with

 what you want for normal operations then see what it can/can't do for any

 single failure mode that you can think of for the whole system.  For the

 things you find unacceptable design in a back up.  The rest are managed.



 I have two 10" displays, an analog airspeed and altimeter, two ADAHRS

 modules, a second radio and two selectable ways to power each device.  A

 loss of any single component will support continued, but perhaps reduced

 capability IFR flight.  Example of a managed risk is if the Garmin 650 craps

 out (as it already has) then I lose my certified IFR WAAS GPS and NAV.  I'd

 be relying on the EFIS standalone GPS system so not legal for IFR but

 perfectly fine for getting me on the ground - after I do the required report

 to ATC.



 Carl

flyboy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 1:14 pm Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

On Fri, May 29, 2015 at 2:03 PM, Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  --> RV10-List message posted by: Tim Olson <Tim(at)myrv10.com (Tim(at)myrv10.com)>



 First, and this may seem like an attack but it's not, and it may

 seem like I'm biased because I'm a "don't have" guy, but I'm not.

 But... I'm just not in the camp that thinks bigger glass is better. 	




Interesting point.  I'd just assumed from looking at them at OSH, that flying behind giant screens would be a much more pleasant experience. But I've zero personal experience flying with large screens, so I don't know.  Have you flown anything with big screens? The small garmins have always looked way too cluttered to me, and some bigger screens seems to make that better.  Personally, the only glass I've spent any time behind is the collins pro line 4 in the CRJ, which has laughably small CRT displays by today's standards.  I never thought they seemed small, but there were 6 of them (you can really only see the 2 in front of you and the 2 in the center), and collins doesn't have the same cluttered look that Garmin does. If I'd been forced to have the engine instruments share with the MFD, I do think the screens would be way too small.  



I want a plane that's comfortable to fly from either seat, as I'm likely to spend a lot of time with two pilots up front.  (I'm also going to be doing instrument instruction with my build partner, and I'm somewhat greedy about wanting my own display over in the right seat.)  I'd been thinking that a single 10" display in front of each pilot would be plenty, but the part that bothers me about that is a screen in front of the seat you're not sitting in is just too far away if one goes dark.  Which means, do you switch seats, or crane your neck?  A center screen would solve that problem.



The G3X Touch is also available with 7" screens, and 3 of those would certainly be good enough, and leave plenty of room for backups.... but 3 bigger screens seems even better.



I've still got well over a year before I have to start filling a panel (just starting on the fuel tanks now), but in the meantime I'm anxiously looking at what's out there.



  [quote][b]

Bob Turner

Joined: 03 Jan 2009
Posts: 885
Location: Castro Valley, CA

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 2:36 pm Post subject: Re: symmetrical panel and backup

My setup has a GRT 6.5" screen centered on tbe left seat, then the avionics, then a second 6.5" screen, so this last one is offset to the left for someone in the right seat. Easy for the left seat to use. I did it this way so the engine instruments, normally on screen 2, are in the same place as on the 182 I flew for many years, so it seems natural to me.

I have given instrument instruction, in actual, in someone else's -10, who had a similar set up. I had no problem looking across to the pilot's PFD; everything was quite readable.

re Tim and CDIs: I quite agree. I routinely do not use the GRT's primary PFD page. Instead, I split it with an electronic HSI. On an ILS the main CDI is showing localizer deviation, while an RMI needle shows the SL30's multiplexed VOR, for cross fixes, missed approach, whatever you need on a no-gps approach. If everything goes bad and I'm reduced to my battery powered D-6 and a hand held Sporty's VOR (so old that it just shows digital to/from bearings) I've found (under the hood) that this works quite well. The trick is to almost close your eyes and imagine the bearing as a needle on an ADF, and fly the approach as if it were an NDB. Of course, that presumes that you can fly NDB approaches!

_________________
Bob Turner
RV-10 QB

rene(at)felker.com
Guest

Posted: Fri May 29, 2015 3:02 pm Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

What is a NDB?  What is a ADF needle?



OK, I am trying to act young....but I am not..



I have never really used the HIS, maybe I should give it a try.  I am flying

young eagles tomorrow at another airport tomorrow so I will have some

transit time to play around.



I got some formation and Acro demo/instruction in a friends RV-7 joining on

my partner flying the 10.  He used the HSI view, but to be honest my head

was outside the airplane 99% of the time.  What a great experience, I have

never done real formation before.



Do not archive



Rene'

801-721-6080



--

Rocketman1988

Joined: 21 Jun 2012
Posts: 63

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 7:39 am Post subject: Re: symmetrical panel and backup

"... don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I really do want something like the GRT mini..."



Exactly.  I am current;y looking at an AFS EFIS with the GRT Mini backup.  Seems like a good compromise.  If the weather is so bad that I need triple redundant systems, then I will probably just delay a bit...or go on the airlines...

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Sat May 30, 2015 12:55 pm Post subject: symmetrical panel and backup

What you choose for backup may be dependent on whether your pitot/static 

lines run to ADAHRS in rear of plane (dynon Skyview) or if it is at the 

instrument panel. The GRT mini requires hook up to those lines, and you 

get benefit of actual airspeed and altitude. Dynon D1/D2 needs no 

hookup, but only gives you GPS derived ground speed and GPS track and 

GPS altitude.



All better than nothing, but not quite as good as barometric and pitot 

derived numbers.



Huge change in redundancy from when I was flying in non-radar areas with 

venturi powered gyros and electric turn coordinator, with single 

nav/com/ils and single ADF.

That gave some blood pressure rise when the venturis iced up.  Key word 

is when, not if. Fortunately the old AN gyros would operate down to less 

than 1" of vacuum, so you got warning when the vacuum started trending 

below 4"

All with one alternator and one battery for electrons.

On 5/30/2015 8:39 AM, Rocketman1988 wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 "... don't think I need the same level of redundancy in my RV-10, but I really do want something like the GRT mini..."



 Exactly.  I am current;y looking at an AFS EFIS with the GRT Mini backup.  Seems like a good compromise.  If the weather is so bad that I need triple redundant systems, then I will probably just delay a bit...or go on the airlines...





 Read this topic online here:



 http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=442808#442808

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

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