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Diagnosing Electrical Problem

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Thu Dec 17, 2015 8:38 pm Post subject: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

Quoted from Jan 2016 Kitplanes by David Boeshaar

 	  Quote: 	
		  After hours of diagnosing an electrical problem and you ask for help, the solution will be blatantly obvious to everyone else, even people who know nothing about electrical problems.

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Joe Gores

rampil

Joined: 04 May 2007
Posts: 870

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:01 am Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

To quote Steve Jobs:

     Yeah, so?

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Ira N224XS

user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 7:08 am Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

 	  Quote: 	
		  Yeah, so? 	


Well, it has been kind dead on this website for awhile.  Thought I would start a new dialog.  Many electrical troubleshooters have been stumped and frustrated by a problem that turned out to be something very simple.  Maybe some forum members would like to share their experience.

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Joe Gores

skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 10:21 am Post subject: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

Joe,

Glad you opened up this "thread".

Odd mysteries of electrical problems come in all sizes and will never end. 

Fast little electrons running thru all sorts of mazes are bound to find a 

black hole or change at the oddest times. . .

One of my experiences that turned out to be dead simple kept me grounded for 

2 days in a remote airport.



I landed my Cessna 185 in a farmers strip to visit one of my sons and family 

that was only 5 min's away.  The flight in was normal and this airplanes 

electrical system was stable.  Two days later, when I fired up to leave, I 

had no alternator output. . or, so I thought.  I was there with only simple 

hand tools and no instruments to diagnose the problem.  I could not find any 

wiring breaks, i.e. the field wire breaking from vibration, etc.  So, with 

my pitiful few tools, I took the alternator and regulator off, called my son 

and he drove me to finally find an auto shop to test same.  Both units 

tested fine.  I reinstalled them and made sure the belt was not slipping and 

then, counted all the skin that I had left doing this in and out thing.

I had some spare wire, so I began to do some connection jumping and found 

the problem.

This Cessna had its original main 60 amp circuit breaker.  These are the 

non-pullable style, but, they do pop out when triggered.  The breaker 

outwardly appeared fine.  But, when I shorted across it, the electrical 

system came alive showing charging current.  How odd that the CB opened up 

but, did not trigger the pop-out indicator. Later, it was determined that 

the CB had not opened due to excessive current, but, failed anyway.  Reason 

unknown. . .

In this case, I had no options for replacing it until back at my home 

airport and I did not want to install the shorting wire.  So, I removed the 

battery stayed an extra night with my son while topping off the battery's 

charge.  Reinstalled the next day and flew the 3 hours home with the panel 

turned off.  Only turned things back on for radio announcements for landing 

and taxi.

If I carried my normal "kit", VOM and tools, this would have gone a lot 

quicker to diagnose. . . .



---

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ceengland7(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 12:38 pm Post subject: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

I know it's 'after the fact', but the auto parts store probably would 

have had a 12V test light & some hookup wire for cheap, or at least the 

wire & a 12 V bulb. Would have made the chore of finding the problem a 

bit quicker. (You'd have seen the 14V on the source side of the alt 

breaker, & known that the alt was working.)



Charlie

(shade tree troubleshooting & repair for over 50 years....)



On 12/18/2015 12:08 PM, David Lloyd wrote:

[quote] 

 <skywagon(at)charter.net>



 Joe,

 Glad you opened up this "thread".

 Odd mysteries of electrical problems come in all sizes and will never 

 end. Fast little electrons running thru all sorts of mazes are bound 

 to find a black hole or change at the oddest times. . .

 One of my experiences that turned out to be dead simple kept me 

 grounded for 2 days in a remote airport.



 I landed my Cessna 185 in a farmers strip to visit one of my sons and 

 family that was only 5 min's away.  The flight in was normal and this 

 airplanes electrical system was stable.  Two days later, when I fired 

 up to leave, I had no alternator output. . or, so I thought.  I was 

 there with only simple hand tools and no instruments to diagnose the 

 problem.  I could not find any wiring breaks, i.e. the field wire 

 breaking from vibration, etc.  So, with my pitiful few tools, I took 

 the alternator and regulator off, called my son and he drove me to 

 finally find an auto shop to test same.  Both units tested fine.  I 

 reinstalled them and made sure the belt was not slipping and then, 

 counted all the skin that I had left doing this in and out thing.

 I had some spare wire, so I began to do some connection jumping and 

 found the problem.

 This Cessna had its original main 60 amp circuit breaker.  These are 

 the non-pullable style, but, they do pop out when triggered. The 

 breaker outwardly appeared fine.  But, when I shorted across it, the 

 electrical system came alive showing charging current. How odd that 

 the CB opened up but, did not trigger the pop-out indicator. Later, it 

 was determined that the CB had not opened due to excessive current, 

 but, failed anyway.  Reason unknown. . .

 In this case, I had no options for replacing it until back at my home 

 airport and I did not want to install the shorting wire.  So, I 

 removed the battery stayed an extra night with my son while topping 

 off the battery's charge.  Reinstalled the next day and flew the 3 

 hours home with the panel turned off.  Only turned things back on for 

 radio announcements for landing and taxi.

 If I carried my normal "kit", VOM and tools, this would have gone a 

 lot quicker to diagnose. . . .



 ---

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:59 pm Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

Skywagon, thanks for sharing. We can learn from the experiences of others.

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Joe Gores

Eric M. Jones

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 565
Location: Massachusetts

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:38 am Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

EDN of 23NOV1995 had an article entitled: "Assume nothing. Test everything." which was a small guide to troubleshooting philosophy (although aimed more at computers and high falutin designs but applicable to life in general). 



He (Jack Ganssle) taught some critical elements of troubleshooting that have helped me over the years. Allow me to share some of them them with you:



1) EVERYTHING YOU KNOW IS WRONG. I.e. Assume nothing. Is it really connected like you think? Are your measuring instrument working? Etc. To facilitate this process-->



2) Keep a notebook of what you are doing, what you suspect, random suspicions, sketches, details, notes for later improvements, hard-to-read numbers, EVERYTHING. When you review your notebook the next day, important clues will often jump out.



3) Start with an organized workbench with all tools at the ready. What are you going to need to test assumptions?



4) Ask for help. Don't be shy! Anybody can help by listening to your explanation...where the obvious might jump out.... Asking experts is how you'll learn, even if they don't have the answer.



5) Use the Internet. Hardly a day goes by without someone asking me a question and I reply (or would like to reply) "Let me Google that for you".

Google has developed the ability to understand plain language questions. The value of searching the 'net cannot be overstated. And it will only get better.



6) Remember, most problems have simple answers. Think "Connectors" not Integrated Circuits. Think "Horses" not Zebras. 



We can all add tips to this list.

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Eric M. Jones
www.PerihelionDesign.com
113 Brentwood Drive
Southbridge, MA 01550
(508) 764-2072
emjones(at)charter.net

skywagon

Joined: 11 Feb 2006
Posts: 184

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 1:01 pm Post subject: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

Charlie,

Good points, . . .and, my "tool" kit had those items.  Except they were left 

out of the plane during the annual and I had forgotten to strap the tool kit 

back in place.  I used to carry a mag and mag parts too.  Never used them, 

but, did help out a friend in an isolated strip.  Don't carry those either. 

. . ;>)



---

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user9253

Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1944
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

Posted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: Diagnosing Electrical Problem

 	  Quote: 	
		  2) Keep a notebook of what you are doing, what you suspect, random suspicions, sketches, details, notes for later improvements, hard-to-read numbers, EVERYTHING. When you review your notebook the next day, important clues will often jump out. 	


I should have followed that advice while doing industrial electrical troubleshooting (before retiring).  I would take measurements without writing anything down, thinking that I would remember.  But then later I could not remember what the conditions were while testing.  Was that switch or that indicator light or that relay turned on or off?  Then I would have to repeat the measurements.  But if it was an intermittent problem, no measurements could be taken while the equipment was working properly.  More time was wasted repeating tests then if I had taken the time to write notes.

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