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MEE
Joined: 26 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Fri Jan 01, 2021 9:51 pm Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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I had to abort a take-off due to poor acceleration and low manifold pressure.
Problem was caused by one throttle cable sticking at just above idle while the other at full throttle!
Even when the cable was lubricated it was still has high friction. Looks like I need new cables. Think the cable system needs expandable rubber boots to reduce the amount of grit that must contaminate the cable runs.
Anyone else had this problem?
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Ian McClelland |
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Richard Wheelwright
Joined: 15 Sep 2008
Posts: 111
Location: Halifax, West Yorkshire, UK
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 3:53 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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I had a similar problem. If cables are oil/greased in time the lubricant eventually drys out and also picks up dust. And then will stick. To solve the problem I changed to solid cables. I sent my old cable to https://www.cable-tec.co.uk/ who made me the new cables to the length required. There is s heat resistant grease that does not dry out, sorry I cannot remember what it was. But it has worked perfectly for about 4 years with no problems.
Richard
On 2 Jan 2021, at 05:52, MEE <macstar1224(at)gmail.com (macstar1224(at)gmail.com)> wrote:
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Richard Wheelwright
G-IRPW
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 292
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 8:46 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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MEE
Joined: 26 Sep 2020
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Sat Jan 02, 2021 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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That's really helpful information.
Thanks Bud
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Ian McClelland |
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mau05160(at)gmail.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 2:26 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem.When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 à 17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit :
[quote]Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
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Throttle_Piano_wire_mfg.pdf |
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183.72 KB |
| Downloaded: |
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davidjoyce(at)doctors.org
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 4:17 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote] Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem. When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a crit :
[quote]Ian,I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono. A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following: Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath. For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction. Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you. Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly. Best Regards,Bud Yerly--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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alainchabert(at)wanadoo.f
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:20 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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For info, Michel gave me a pair, and since that works perfectly, and moreover the balancing of the carburettors is much more stable.
Happy new year
Alain CHABERT
e-mail : alainchabert(at)wanadoo.fr (alainchabert(at)wanadoo.fr)
Le 03/01/2021 à 13:17, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) a écrit :
[quote]
Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote] Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem. When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 à 17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit :
[quote]Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
| | - The Matronics Europa-List Email Forum - | | | Use the List Feature Navigator to browse the many List utilities available such as the Email Subscriptions page, Archive Search & Download, 7-Day Browse, Chat, FAQ, Photoshare, and much more:
http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?Europa-List |
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:31 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Fwiw, my classic’s piano wire broke from fatigue (luckily during runup). I replaced with teflon coated bicycle brake wire, and its perfect, free, and trouble free.
Pete
C-GNPZ
[quote]On Jan 3, 2021, at 7:25 AM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk wrote:
Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote] Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem. When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 à17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit :
[quote]Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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wdaniell.longport(at)gmai
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 5:58 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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PeteHow did you do the throttle lever end? Or did you find the right size item?
Will
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 08:34 Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
[quote]Fwiw, my classic’s piano wire broke from fatigue (luckily during runup). I replaced with teflon coated bicycle brake wire, and its perfect, free, and trouble free.
Pete
C-GNPZ
[quote]On Jan 3, 2021, at 7:25 AM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote] Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem. When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 à 17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit :
[quote]Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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peterz(at)zutrasoft.com
Guest
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 6:10 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Troy Maynor built it with a nice SS throttle box end, with a setscrew hole for the stranded wire. Setscrew+loctite works a treat. Requires heat to remove.
[quote]On Jan 3, 2021, at 9:06 AM, William Daniell <wdaniell.longport(at)gmail.com> wrote:
PeteHow did you do the throttle lever end? Or did you find the right size item?
Will
William Daniell
+1 786 878 0246
On Sun, Jan 3, 2021, 08:34 Pete <peterz(at)zutrasoft.com (peterz(at)zutrasoft.com)> wrote:
[quote]Fwiw, my classic’s piano wire broke from fatigue (luckily during runup). I replaced with teflon coated bicycle brake wire, and its perfect, free, and trouble free.
Pete
C-GNPZ
[quote]On Jan 3, 2021, at 7:25 AM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote] Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem. When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Le sam. 2 janv. 2021 à 17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit :
[quote]Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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budyerly@msn.com
Joined: 05 Oct 2019
Posts: 292
Location: Florida USA
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| Posted: Sun Jan 03, 2021 8:11 am Post subject: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam |
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Pete,
I had the same issues with piano wire. I use a Z bend plier on some of my non critical push pull cables (heater/cowl flap) and the harder the wire the more brittle.
With piano type wire, the run has to be carefully planned as the wire bends are not as flexible and there is binding between the bend in the sheath and the wire that must be compensated for or a few years down the road you have issues. Since the carb throw is only a couple inches, we can get by with very shallow bends sometimes making a push pull solid wire acceptable. Put a sharp radius of six inches in it and you’ve got trouble.
Duncan’s wire bending requires a good eye and touch. Real craftsmanship to do nice work with a coil that is rigid enough to stay vertical, pivots well, and stays where you put it without breaking many wires.
I fall back on motorcycle and bicycle tech when doing cable planning. From following their guidelines, making twisted cable work effectively as a pull pull cable can be done flawlessly. Knowing how to run the cables to prevent binding is essential in any cable operation using a single cable/spring setup fixed at both ends. When you add the push to a cable or wire, that is where it becomes quite “fiddley”. The throttle setup in the Europa should never need to push the throttle open. If the friction is released on the cockpit throttle, the throttle should happily move forward.
When in doubt, buy a set of Europa Cables and use care in running the sheaths and long loose loops for flawless operations.
I was reminded this morning from an old client that one should also check his throttles don’t stick at fully closed. His cables were bending in the throttle box on initial install. Come to find out, we had a factory new carb throttle sticking always at idle. Investigation revealed, the throttle plate was not aligned properly and was dragging on the wall of the carb venturi/bore.
It is always a game of milli inches / volts and amps isn’t it.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
From: owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com <owner-europa-list-server(at)matronics.com> On Behalf Of Pete
Sent: Sunday, January 03, 2021 8:31 AM
To: europa-list(at)matronics.com
Subject: Re: Europa-List: Europa XS Mono Throttle cable friction and jam
Fwiw, my classic’s piano wire broke from fatigue (luckily during runup). I replaced with teflon coated bicycle brake wire, and its perfect, free, and trouble free.
Pete
C-GNPZ
[quote]
On Jan 3, 2021, at 7:25 AM, davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk (davidjoyce(at)doctors.org.uk) wrote:
Michel, I like your solution! Next time my cables give trouble I shall replace them with piano wire ‘facon Auvray’.
Bon Annee, David Joyce, GXSDJ
On 2021-01-03 10:25, Michel AUVRAY wrote: [quote]
Hello Bud, I send to you my throttle cable solution operative since 1999 without problem.
When I was made my second or third fly with my europa 145, I have the same problem, the cables bend into the box !
Also I applied this radical solution. And I used this solution on many others rotax engines.
If the spring is broken or inoperative, the piano wire performs the function with great reliability.
Lesam. 2 janv. 2021 à17:51, Bud Yerly <budyerly(at)msn.com (budyerly(at)msn.com)> a écrit:
[quote]
Ian,
I believe the Europa Club has a paper I did on throttle cable installation on their site, it is also at https://customflightcreations.com/techniques-articles/ (I don't pay google any longer so type in the https://... to find the site through all the paying ad customers.) If the cable bends in the throttle box, it is generally not a lubrication problem or even a sticky oil cable to sheath issue. It is a problem with the cable installation, most likely a kinked or bound cable. Maintainers unfamiliar with the Europa often look at the cables and are appalled that they are loose and not firmly bound all along their route to the carb. In their attempt for neatness, they bind the cable(s) and cause them to bind. Builders also fail to get their initial throttle box alignment correct to prevent the cable(s) from cleanly entering the sheath from the throttle arm. I recently scolded one of my clients for allowing a well known Rotax repair facility touch his cable routing. The repairman kinked the cables and bound them tightly. It was an older Classic (20+ years old), so upon installation of his new cables, all worked flawlessly again.
Cables must be anchored and aligned properly on both ends and frankly, the area in between must be loopy and only lightly affixed to prevent interference in the wheel well of the mono.
A new set of cables can be purchased, but still, the running of the cables, the alignment in the home made throttle box and fixation to the carby must be addressed.
To supplement my article on "Throttle and choke cable etiquette" attached, please check the following:
Prior to removing the cables to rebuild them to proper spec. one can check that the cables are not kinked or tightly bound, the cable binding nuts on the throttles are lubricated and free to rotate, and the throttle box cable pivot points on the arm are free to operate. (The only two points requiring lubrication are this pivot on the throttle linkage and the box cable pivot attachment in my opinion.) Look into the throttle box for proper cable alignment. If issues are found, simply removing the cable/throttle box to your nice warm workbench and correcting issues is all that is needed. I find that if the cable itself is kinked, or unraveled, it is best to replace the cables as it is not worth the time. If the cable will not operate laid out on the bench, it won't work in the plane. If you have to tug on a cable in either direction to get it to move, you have a damaged sheath. Remember, cable sheaths are just a coil of wire wrapped around a nylon tube. If the winding is damaged, it squeezes the inner liner, and the cable will not operate freely in the sheath.
For me, the nylon sheath lined cables require no lube over a lifetime. (Although I have used a graphite lube to ease customers fears from the constant complaints of club members/owners on this subject.) The sheath is lined with nylon, coiled in stainless, then heat shrink over the top making a dirt resistant sheath for the twisted wire cable. My old original Classic cables from 1998 (I'm not sure if they were supplied by Europa) were damaged by the original builder and were shortened in length, but alas his technique was poor as the cable sheaths were bent hard, the cable end cuts were smashed and the cable attachments were misaligned in the throttle box. So there was much to correct. Note that if supplied with an aftermarket or original non lined sheath, they are best replaced as stainless steel to stainless steel can lead to a corrosion problem eventually. My 2005 supplied Europa cables have been good now for 15+ years with only a single light lube of a Teflon or graphite that was used during inspection (I can't remember what lube I used on the cloth as I was more interested in corrosion of the cables here in Florida). The reason I pulled my cables was for an experiment during my rubber replacement at the 10 year condition inspection, when I also chose to install a throttle friction.
Some owner/builders have done solid cables of wire, model airplane nyrod push pull cables, and Zenith style solid rod to a welded arm on the firewall that allows both throttles to be actuated via a short push pull cable. All taking more time, money and effort than simply following cable etiquette. Read over the attached paper and check your cables for yourself. Correct any issues, make sure it works on the bench with the cables straight, then make a large loop and check again. After install in the aircraft but not yet attached to the carb arm, the cables should move freely. If the throttle cables worked on the bench and not in the aircraft, you've pinched something. I've found from winter to summer, from minus 10C to plus 40C the cables work fine from Canada to Florida so they should work for you.
Any cable of twisted wire, solid wire or plastic will do if you can get the fittings right on the ends and aligned properly. In experimentation, it takes a keen eye for detail, time, patience, analysis and money to correct our new designs/mods and get them working flawlessly.
Best Regards,
Bud Yerly
--
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