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30A PM alternator and Z101?
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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Mon May 16, 2022 6:35 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

The Monkworkz 30A PM alternator is in production. I'd say at this time it's for early-adopters. Ref VAF thread https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=206179

It cannot be connected directly to the battery because it presents a passive load that will drain the battery. “there is a resistive voltage divider on the output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will over time drag your battery down”

It is said to start and work well with battery disconnected.

Question for Bob and others… best way to incorporate it into Z101? Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and battery?

You can download the installation manual at https://monkworkz.com/


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PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 12:24 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Quote:
It cannot be connected directly to the battery because it presents a passive load that will drain the battery. “there is a resistive voltage divider on the output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will over time drag your battery down”

Okay, as a MAIN alternator, it would drive the main
bus. As a standby alternator, it would need a relay
to isolated from the battery.

Quote:
BTW it is said to start and work well with battery disconnected.

Great!

Quote:
Question for Bob and others… best way to incorporate it into Z101?
Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and battery?

I believe so . . . or fat diode. This could be easily
explored/confirmed.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Ceengland



Joined: 11 Oct 2020
Posts: 389
Location: MS

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 4:04 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

On 5/17/2022 3:23 PM, Robert L. Nuckolls, III wrote:

Quote:
Quote:
It cannot be connected directly to the battery because it presents a passive load that will drain the battery. “there is a resistive voltage divider on the output that keeps tabs on the output voltage and that will over time drag your battery down”

  Okay, as a MAIN alternator, it would drive the main
  bus. As a standby alternator, it would need a relay
  to isolated from the battery.

Quote:
BTW it is said to start and work well with battery disconnected.

  Great!

Quote:
Question for Bob and others… best way to incorporate it into Z101?
Simply a 40A automotive relay between alternator and battery?

  I believe so . . . or fat diode. This could be easily
  explored/confirmed.


  Bob . . .

  Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
  survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
  out of that stuff?"
If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway.

I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC) like you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator instead. I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad. Anyone know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'? I'm thinking something similar to this:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-l3010b-1300-brushless-motor-420w.html


On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like mine, on receiving emails from the list?
I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics *forum* & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the original post in my spam/junk folders.

Charlie

Virus-free. www.avast.com [url=#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2] [/url]


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Tue May 17, 2022 6:47 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Ceengland wrote:
On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like mine, on receiving emails from the list? I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics forum & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the original post in my spam/junk folders.

Yes, I've had a lot of problems with the email echo system too. Multiple duplicate emails, posts delivered late or out of order, missing posts, etc. I switched to the daily digest hoping it would be less problematic, but it's no better. I often get nothing for days, then get several digests in one day, out of chronological order. I've emailed Matt to enquire about these problems but received no reply.

I finally gave up on the emails; I just put a link to the A-E List on my browser's start page and I check the forum periodically. I already check the EAA and Kitfox forums, so it's no great burden to look here as well.

As I'm sure you've noticed, there are other problems. When members make posts that include an image or PDF, they often come through email as fifteen or twenty pages of random characters instead of an attachment. The forum frequently splits threads into multiple instances with nearly identical subject lines, making it very difficult to follow or search older content. The new post link on threads with new posts only works once; if you click it on a second thread, it returns an error saying there are no new posts.

I suppose there's a reason that the Matronics empire appears to run on a ca.2005 version of the phpBB forum. It's an open source package and updates are free, so we can only guess what that reason might be...


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 6:01 am    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Ceengland wrote:
If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway.

... I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad.

Anyone know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'?...




OV protection is in the regulator.

It’s an outrunner, the outside case spins.

No gearbox in the Monkworkz PM alternator: “Yep, it's direct drive, the only thing between the generator shaft and the vacuum spline gear is a shear coupling. Bill at Monkworkz.com”


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min install schematic from IM of 9 Oct 2022.jpg
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min install schematic from IM of 9 Oct 2022.jpg



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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 9:05 am    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Quote:
If OV protection is used, You'd need a relay on the output anyway.

Here's their installation data:

http://aeroelectric.com/Mfgr_Data/Monkworkx/MZ-30L%20Installation%20and%20Operation%20Manual%202021.pdf

Seems it has a 'outrunner' style magnet housing
like most PM alternators. It's a 3 phase machine
which goes a long way toward achieving this power
density . . . along with forced air cooling.

Quote:
I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC) like you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator instead. I'd also bet that there's a little wide-ratio planetary gearbox in the nose, to get the magnet spinning fast enough to make that kind of power when mounted on the low rpm vacuum pad. Anyone know if it's an 'outrunner' or 'inrunner'? I'm thinking something similar to this:
https://hobbyking.com/en_us/turnigy-l3010b-1300-brushless-motor-420w.html

Yeah, adapting one of those products to this application
would require a step-up gearbox . . . which is
exceedingly difficult if the driven mass has much
rotational inertia. We note that the Monkworks
machine's outside diameter is quite small compared
to other products . . . barely larger than the
footprint of the vacuum pump pad.

The companion electronics has ov protection built
in. It also needs forced air cooling . . . not
surprising given it's small volume and footprint



Quote:
On a completely different subject, is anyone having an issue like mine, on receiving emails from the list?
I frequently see the reply (as this one, which is Bob's reply), but I never see the original message unless I log into the Matronics *forum* & find the thread. This is a fairly common problem for me; I'm set up for receiving every post via email. I never find the original post in my spam/junk folders.

Outside my wheelhouse. You might drop a note to
byte thrasher in charge, Matt D and apprise him
of your issues.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Wed May 18, 2022 10:07 am    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Quote:
I took a quick look at their web page, and it seems a safe bet that
it's a high output brushless DC motor (really inverter driven AC) like
you'd see on a big RC plane, that's being used as a generator instead.

Charlie,

It occurred to me that I'd not wandered through
the offerings in RC motors for some time. A client
asked me to sift through the catalogs about 10
years ago with the thought of adapting a 'tiny'
motor to an actuator design. We didn't find anything
useful the task at that time.

Revisiting the market today reveals some motors
on the BEEFY end of the spectrum with current
and Kv ratings that just MIGHT lend themselves
to a direct drive, 3 phase, pm alternator design.

Some interesting finds:

https://tinyurl.com/yy892euu

https://tinyurl.com/39jtnhyj

https://tinyurl.com/2p8stwb7

https://tinyurl.com/4kcmkazf

It might be that none of these would be
optimal candidates, at least they suggest
some possibilities.


Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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Eric Page



Joined: 15 Feb 2017
Posts: 245

PostPosted: Tue May 24, 2022 12:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Paul Dye's write-up on the Monkworkz MZ-30L:

https://www.kitplanes.com/the-monkworkz-mz-30l-direct-drive-generator/


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Mon Jun 06, 2022 12:43 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

I exchanged emails with Bill Judge at Monkworkz. He expressed concern the battery alternator's regulator could register an OV event if the battery alternator relay was opened while the alternator is delivering significant current. I brainstormed several configurations and posted them at https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1EP07O-9srhEHeR6za8DwbJBh0cdGIK50?usp=sharing

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:30 am    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

At 03:43 PM 6/6/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>

I exchanged emails with Bill Judge at Monkworkz. He expressed concern the battery alternator's regulator could register an OV event if the battery alternator relay was opened while the alternator is delivering significant current. What I came up with is a progressive off / enable / on switch for the regulator and a Schottky diode to shunt any voltage spike to the battery. Ref attached pdf and its notes 2, 7, and 8.

This posting seems to 'worry' about a transient
event that is not well understood. Exactly what
are the conditions that set up the possibility
for the adverse event (spike to the battery?)
What is the energy signature of the event (watt-seconds,
duration) and what components of the system are
at-risk for having suffered the event?

Has the event been demonstrated on the bench?



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:41 am    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

The narrative speaks to a 'backup alternator mode'
and a voltage reduction option in the connector wiring?

What for? Suppose you're flying along sipping coffee
and listening to your favorite tracks on the stereo
and the main alternator quits.

What, if any, emergent condition exists that drives
a requirement for automatic change-over to the
standby alternator? If you've incorporated this
feature in your system, how will you know that the
change-over has taken place?

Is there a requirement for proper sequencing of
switches for normal operations? My design goals
strive to generate no hazard to system components
by a mis-placement of switches. Is it perceived
that the proposed system has such a risk? Has
the risk been demonstrated on the bench?




Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
Posts: 1921
Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

The diode parallels the relay contacts. When the contacts open, the diode will carry full alternator
output which will destroy the diode which is rated at only 4 amps. Why open the relay in flight?
I interpret Bob's posts to mean that you are worrying about a problem that doesn't exist.


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PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2022 7:37 am    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

At 09:11 AM 6/7/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

The diode parallels the relay contacts. When the contacts open, the diode will carry full alternator
output which will destroy the diode which is rated at only 4 amps. Why open the relay in flight?

. . . or more to the point, under what conditions is
the relay energized/de-energized? Why would one have
this relay closed in normal flight?

Recall that the 'auto switch over' feature for the standby
alternator was a concession to TC aircraft manufacturers
when the legacy pad-driven alternators were being
considered for Beech and Cessna products.

I argued that it was an unnecessary complication and
expense added to a simple solution. OBAM aircraft are
EXPECTED to have active notification of low voltage.
The time between notification and pilot action to
to implement plan-b is not a critical issue. Whether
this is 10 seconds or 10 minutes is of no significant
consequence.

So why add the electronics to automate the process?
Note that Z-101 suggests the standby alternator have
only a pilot operated on/off switch and no
ov protection! You're going to pre-flight test this
hardware and then let it sit idle for reminder of
flight unless needed. This means that the system spends
99.999 percent of it's service life doing nothing yet
it is tested every few hours at the beginning of each
flight cycle.

Given the ever-improving durability of contemporary
main alternators, it seems likely that most s/b
alternators will never see service under duress.

So when the lo volts light comes on, finish your
cup of coffee. Wipe the cup out before you screw it
back on the thermos bottle and then set about
configuring switches for plan-b.

As to the ever popular worries about spikes, surges
and things that go bump in the night . . . question
the narrator for when and how these phenomenon
occur and what tests were conducted to verify
their existence, energy signature and risk.

"Spikes to the battery" have no qualification or
quantification in physics. As Lord Kelvin once
opined, "If you can't talk about the thing in
terms of numbers, then you don't really know
much about it."

From the time I began my career in aviation electrics
circa 1975 until the present time, there have been
consistent rumors that engine starters loose
horrible electronic gremlins onto the system. I've
instrumented dozens of aircraft with data acquisition
systems since then and never captured such a beast
in the wild.

Here on the List years ago, we explored the propagation
of inductive energy discharge and discovered that
even without suppression, those events do not
propagate past the contacts of the controlling device . . .
effects on the remainder of the system were barely
observable and of no consequence.

But more to the point, hundreds of other researchers
have concurred in their creation of documents like
Mil-STD-704 and DO-160. These documents define the
demonstrated limits to environmental/electrical
stress designers EXPECT to see in aircraft so that
those can be confidently accounted for in design
and integration of new products.

"Starter spikes" don't even get honorable mention.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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user9253



Joined: 28 Mar 2008
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Location: Riley TWP Michigan

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 7:57 am    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

If it is desired to shut off the alternator during flight and there is concern
about causing an over voltage event, just close the throttle first.

Speaking of a thermos bottle, never fill one with boiling hot coffee that is intended
to be opened during flight. Due to the lower atmospheric pressure at altitude, the very hot coffee
will turn to instant steam, burning the pilot and filling the cockpit with fog which fogs the windows.


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
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Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 8:52 am    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

I created some pdf files "Elec Schem with Monkworkz MZ-30L as backup and Z101 as a template...", too large to attach so https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wCRqBknCU6JXPrNTm0PMvXaXHlPn2v2A?usp=sharing

Bob:
    I don't understand why the regulator would generate a voltage spike if disconnected from the battery while delivering a significant level of current.
    Bill Judge of Monkworkz said "It's possible that the OVP would be triggered by switching off the relay when there is significant current flowing. No damage will occur but you only get three of those per engine start. Around 15.3 V is where an OV event is registered, and the duration needs to be on the order of 10 ns or more, way faster than DO-160 requires."
    I was trying to address his concern by adding the diode across the relay.
    The voltage spike has not been demonstrated on the bench to my knowledge.

    Alternator backup mode:
      I understand that it's not necessary.
      The crew will get an indication on the EFIS or panel light if the alternator wakes up from backup mode when the voltage drops to 13.7. Ref the Active High connection on the regulator.

    The only configuration that has any sort of switch sequencing SOP is Configuration 1 where the progressive battery alternator off / connect / on switch should not be moved quickly from on to off in order that the hypothetical voltage spike would not be created. If this switch is moved quickly from on to off and if the hypothetical voltage spike is a real thing, the diode across the relay will shunt said spike to the battery.

Joe: AFAIK the 1N5822 diode is rated at 3A (IF(AV) under certain standard conditions) which is OK because the alternator is off when the relay contacts are open.

I don't have a Monkworkz alternator to experiment with rather I'm trying to plan ahead in case this product proves itself in the field. I see it as being in the early adopter stage at present.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 2:41 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

At 10:57 AM 6/8/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "user9253" <fransew(at)gmail.com>

If it is desired to shut off the alternator during flight and there is concern
about causing an over voltage event, just close the throttle first.

Speaking of a thermos bottle, never fill one with boiling hot coffee that is intended
to be opened during flight. Due to the lower atmospheric pressure at altitude, the very hot coffee
will turn to instant steam, burning the pilot and filling the cockpit with fog which fogs the windows.

Airplanes I fly don't achieve that kind of
atmospheric delta-p. Further, in recognition
of McD's famous pension for serving drive-up
coffee capable of bodily harm . . . I don't
bottle it up that hot for terrestrial travel
much less at 10K (boiling point 195F).



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 08, 2022 4:01 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

Quote:
Bob:
I don't understand why the regulator would generate a voltage spike if disconnected from the battery while delivering a significant level of current.

This is an oft cited but seldom encountered
condition which the automotive circle call an
"alternator load dump" event. The worst-case
pre-event condition is as follows:

You have a really robust alternator (modern
vehicle loads often call for alternators in 100A
class!).

Your battery is badly discharged . . . maybe you
ran it down having left something on over night.

You get the car started and the alternator goes
to work stuffing energy back into the battery . . .
i.e. regulator running nearly full field in
an attempt to get things back in order.

So now we have a BATTERY demanding alternator
output while vehicle demands are low.

Now . . . for what ever reason . . . the battery
becomes disconnected from the vehicle's distribution
system. The alternator suddenly becomes lightly
loaded and the battery's willingness to absorb
alternator transient surges is gone.

Take a peek at this document from Texas Instruments:

https://tinyurl.com/2ymdwrcj

Figure 4 illustrates the automotive load dump
parameters, this is an analog to the DO-160
40v surge favored by aviation in 14v systems.

Figure 3 illustrates the condition that precipitates
the event.

Figure 8 illustrates performance of a over-voltage
disconnect circuit (figure 6) when placed in
the supply lead of an at risk product.

We had a hopeful supplier to Beech offering
heated seat inserts being proposed for some of
our high-end heavy-iron. They were unable to
pass the 80v surge for qualification on our
28v aircraft. I suggested and almost identical
but simpler h.v. disconnect circuit which they
incorporated with success . . . don't know if
they ever made it onto our airplanes.

Long story short, what is the likelihood of
suffering a disconnect of depleted battery
at rpms high enough to be producing heavy output
thus setting up an alternator load-dump event?

Further, the automotive load-dump ALWAYS involves
a wound-field alternator driven by a regulator
with a purposefully limited response struggling
to bring a fully fielded, suddenly unloaded
alternator back under control while it's
b-lead is still connected to potential
victims of the o.v. event.

It's not clear to me how a PM alternator's
rectifier/regulator would suffer a similar
characteristic with the 'b-lead' relay.


Quote:
Bill Judge of Monkworkz said "It's possible that the OVP would be triggered by switching off the relay when there is significant current flowing. No damage will occur but you only get three of those per engine start. Around 15.3 V is where an OV event is registered, and the duration needs to be on the order of 10 ns or more, way faster than DO-160 requires."

This makes no sense to me. Switching off the
'b-lead' relay can suddenly unload the alternator
which will undoubtedly experience some magnitude
of load dump surge. But where will it go and
what risk for damage exists? He of all people
should know.

Quote:
I was trying to address his concern by adding the diode across the relay.
The voltage spike has not been demonstrated on the bench to my knowledge.

Perhaps it would be well for him to explore this
question?

Quote:
Alternator backup mode:I understand that it's not necessary.
The crew will get an indication on the EFIS or panel light if the alternator wakes up from backup mode when the voltage drops to 13.7. Ref the Active High connection on the regulator.

The only configuration that has any sort of switch sequencing SOP is Configuration 1 where the progressive battery alternator off / connect / on switch should not be moved quickly from on to off in order that the hypothetical voltage spike would not be created. If this switch is moved quickly from on to off and if the hypothetical voltage spike is a real thing, the diode across the relay will shunt said spike to the battery.

I'm concerned that any such band-aid would be
useful along with any requirement placed on
the pilot for positioning of switches.

Quote:
Joe: AFAIK the 1N5822 diode is rated at 3A (IF(AV) under certain standard conditions) which is OK because the alternator is off when the relay contacts are open.

If it's 'off' where does the surge come from,
how high, how long and if the diode were not
there, what are the risks?

Quote:
I don't have a Monkworkz alternator to experiment with rather I'm trying to plan ahead in case this product proves itself in the field. I see it as being in the early adopter stage at present.

If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz
product development team, then one would want to
do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon
such questions could be explored.




Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
Quote:
Bob:
If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz
product development team, then one would want to
do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon
such questions could be explored.


Not recruited rather a sort of an uninvited volunteer / masochist. I’m gonna stop here until such time as I have a Monkworkz PM alternator on my yet to be completed AC.

Bill at Monkworkz runs bench testing by spinning the alternator with a drill press. Ref YouTube channel.


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_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 10, 2022 8:43 pm    Post subject: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

At 09:14 PM 6/10/2022, you wrote:
Quote:
--> AeroElectric-List message posted by: "johnbright" <john_s_bright(at)yahoo.com>

[quote="nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect"]
> Bob:
> If you're being recruited as part of the Monkworkz
> product development team, then one would want to
> do some bench testing to confirm/deny the hypothesis.
> I've got a AN20000 drive pad test stand whereupon
> such questions could be explored.


Not recruited rather a sort of an uninvited volunteer / masochist. I’m gonna stop here until such time as I have a Monkworkz PM alternator on my yet to be completed AC.

Bill at Monkworkz runs bench testing by spinning the alternator with a drill press.

Not exactly a precision test instrument. Next time
you talk to him, suggest that I can plot efficiency
and performance curves with some degree of confidence
along with quantification of the 'spike' theory.

. . . suitable NDA provided . . . of course.



Bob . . .

Un impeachable logic: George Carlin asked, "If black boxes
survive crashes, why don't they make the whole airplane
out of that stuff?"


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johnbright



Joined: 14 Dec 2011
Posts: 165
Location: Newport News, VA

PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2022 5:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 30A PM alternator and Z101? Reply with quote

nuckolls.bob(at)aeroelect wrote:
At 09:14 PM 6/10/2022, you wrote:

Not exactly a precision test instrument. Next time
you talk to him, suggest that I can plot efficiency
and performance curves with some degree of confidence
along with quantification of the 'spike' theory.

. . . suitable NDA provided . . . of course.

Bob . . .


Hi Bob,

I have communicated by email and telephone with Bill Judge of Monkworkz.

I passed along your offer of doing performance testing and evaluation of the spike that trips OV protection if the B lead is disconnected under load. At present Bill plans to keep testing in house.

Present Monkworkz documentation shows the B lead connected downstream of the master contactor. Perhaps Bill will come up with a recommended Z101 implementation. I shared my brainstorm configurations from post 9 with him.

Bill has a customer who connected the B lead to the battery using a relay independent of the master contactor and has hit the OV protection by opening the relay under load. This does not happen with the B lead connected downstream of the master contractor.

Per Bill:

“Why does this happen? Well, there are inductors inside the regulator, you can't instantaneously change the current in an inductor, the current has nowhere to go and causes a spike. That spike gets mopped up by a massive (1.5kW) TVS diode on the output but that doesn't kick in until the voltage goes over ~16 V, and the OVP kicks in at 15.3 V.

The generator has nothing to do with the spike. The output of the generator is rectified and sent through a voltage converter, the voltage converter is causing the spike.”


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_________________
John Bright, RV-6A, at FWF, O-360
Z-101 single batt dual alt SDS EM-5-F.
john_s_bright@yahoo.com, Newport News, Va
N1921R links
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