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planecrazzzy
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 11:12 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

Thanks Big Lar,  I get it now....



 If they really wanna make fun of me , I'm from Calif....



  There's aways somethin there....or just make it up...



 How's work Big Lar, ....Been really hot here, must be Hell there...



 Been hitting Fly-ins like crazzzy around here , Kind of glad there wasn't

one this weekend , or I'da had to be out in this heat....



                       Gotta Fly...

                                       Mike in MN , Dreamin about my next plane

.

.

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biglar

Joined: 14 Jan 2006
Posts: 457

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:15 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Humid and hotter'n hell here last week, but it's moderated some now.



Grin at the idiots, and talk nice to the sane ones.  Helps yer own sanity. 

Don't let the a--holes getcha down.



They're closing the hotel I work at for 18 - 24 months for a complete 

renovation, remodeling, and expansion, so as of Aug 13, I'm out of a job. 

What Fun ! ! !                   Do not Archive.



---

_________________
Larry Bourne
Palm Springs, CA
Building Kolb Mk IIIC
"Vamoose"

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 1:56 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

| I imagine it would take at least 20 knots of tail wind to lift the 

tail in this manner if the stick were full back.   | --------

| Dave Bigelow



Dave B/Gang:



Takes very little tail wind to put the FF on its nose.  Far less than 

20 kts or 20 mph.



I, personally, can not imagine taxiing and flying a FF in 20 kts or 

more wind.



Remember putting the FF on its nose while taxiing back to take off at 

Sun and Fun several years ago.  Certainly was nothing near 20 kts that 

did the number on me and my trusty FF.  The idle was set too high on 

the 447.  When it went up on its nose, the high idling 447 kept it 

going for half the length of the field before I could get it stopped. 

When it did stop, I stuck my foot out, pushed it back up, taxied on 

down and took off like nothing had happened.  All in a days work.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:00 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

So if the wind comes from the front or rear it passes over the up 

elevator and the lift vector on the tail is going to be down.

|

| At I22 it is not uncommon to taxi in winds of 20+ mph.

|

| Jack B. Hart FF004



Jack B Hart/Gang:



Not so.



To taxi a FF with the stick back and a 20+ mph tail wind will promptly 

put you on your nose.



Check your wind speed indicator.  I get the impression it needs to be 

calibrated, somewhat.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:20 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

|  The position of the stick

| that requires the highest rpm to lift the tail is the most favorable 

for

| downwind taxiing.

 |

| Jack B. Hart FF004



Jack B Hart/Gang:



You don't reckon the FF high thrust line is having anything to do with 

the tail raising when tied down no matter where the control stick is 

located?  I bet you could put a concrete block on the horizontal 

stabilizer and still get the tail off the ground with the stick in the 

aft position at wide open throttle.



Reaction of an aircraft tied to a stake and down wind taxiing don't 

have much in common best I can tell.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ed in JXN

Joined: 24 Mar 2006
Posts: 122

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Way too much debate going on about this for me.  Seems it was worked out 

just after the Wrights did their thing, and has been taught by everyone from 

them to the FAA Flight Training Handbook to Langeswieche to...  Into a 

headwind stick back; with a tailwind stick forward.



But there are always those who will debate the laws of physics.



BTW, if someone is good at engineering, I have an interesting CG question I 

need answered.  Simple, but hard.



Ed in JXN (MI)

MkII/503

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Jack, et al, As it happens I was out hacking the weeds down around the lagoon this afternoon when a 182 razorback made the turn to back taxi down the runway. It was blowing 20 with gusts to 30 here in the Sunflower State at the time. He had full up elevator cranked in and as he came around the tail of the plane began pogoing up and down far more than the surface of the runway (dead grass over sunbaked dirt) should cause. Didn't take long for him to get the elevator to full down position and the pogoing stopped. 

Check out "The Compleat Taildragger Pilot" by Harvey S. Plourde, or "Stick and Rudder" by Wolfgang Langewiesche.

Neither agrees with me about full stick forward while taxiing up wind or at the start of the takeoff roll, it is my adaptation to the Mk III and it works for me. 



Rick



-- 

Rick Girard

"Ya'll drop on in"

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

Eugene Zimmerman

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 392

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Jack,

I believe your logic  is flawless but your analysis of the effect is  

incorrect due to a very significant  piece of information has not  

been taken into consideration.

That would be the completely different horizontal stabilizer and  

elevator assembly leading edge and trailing plan-form SHAPE relative  

to the each specific wind direction.



If you were to reverse mount your horizontal stabilizer and elevator  

assembly surfaces  would you still have enough elevator control  

authority?   Certainly not!



On Jul 30, 2006, at 2:00 PM, Jack B. Hart wrote:



 	  Quote: 	
		   If the wind flow is horizontal to the ground, it does not matter if  

 the wind

 is up or down wind as it passes over the horizontal stabilizer and  

 elevator

 assembly.  In both cases the air must travel further to pass below the

 assembly than the air that passes above it.  This will place down  

 load on

 the tail.

APilot(at)webtv.net
Guest

Posted: Sun Jul 30, 2006 9:01 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

CG problems are fun.....let'r rip.  Even if my answer is not popular, I

bet I will learn something.    Vic

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

Kolbers,



I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy 

conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft.  But with a Kolb 

FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash.  If the 

horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop wash, 

I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in the 

way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take off.  The 

tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on it's 

nose.  But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a high 

thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it 

like a Mini-Max.



Not picking on a J-3 Cub but only using it as an example and moving it 

closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised the 

thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half?  



As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some times 

we do not have much choice.  Conditions change when you are out and about.  



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

Thom Riddle

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1597
Location: Buffalo, NY, USA (9G0)

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 4:24 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

..BTW, if someone is good at engineering, I have an interesting CG 

question I

       need answered.  Simple, but hard.



       Ed in JXN (MI)

       MkII/503



Ed,



Post the CG problem. I'm sure you'll get lots of feedback.



Thom in Buffalo

retired engineer, but can still do simple math, sometimes correctly

do not archive

_________________
Thom Riddle
Buffalo, NY (9G0)

Don't worry about old age... it doesn't last very long.
- Anonymous

dcreech(at)hotmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 10:18 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with 

prop wash."



Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout, 

right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I 

open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over.  Obviously the 

idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail.  Do you think 

that's all irrelevant, then?  I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick 

forward just to see what happens.  Why don't you do that, and report back 

how it goes?  



Lee



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net>

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

Date: Mon,  Jul 26 8:28:58 -5






Kolbers,



I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy

conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft.  But with a Kolb

FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash.  If the

horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop wash,

I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in 

the

way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take off.  The

tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on it's

nose.  But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a 

high

thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it

like a Mini-Max.



Not picking on a J- Cub but only using it as an example and moving it

closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised the

thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half?



As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some times

we do not have much choice.  Conditions change when you are out and about.



Jack B. Hart FF4

Winchester, IN








	


_________________________________________________________________

Don’t just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 

http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm266ave/direct//

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

"I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick forward just to see what happens. Why don't you do that, and report back how it goes? "



Well I can tell ya from A firestar standpoint! Full throtle in any stick position from standstill will "MOON" the world! I don't care if anyone believes me or not. I am living proof. And if you full backstick with even 5 MPH winds from a stand still from the front, it will moon the world. The slightest rut in a grass field at start-off and she would be happer to BOW DOWN to God than lift off . Although she will move forward with great speed!



Stick back head into wind, crank speed, full throtle, stick neutral and boom, your up . Of course, after trying and proving every "dumb" move avaliable, I'm only 4 hours of landing and takeoff, very little air time between. I certanly could be wrong, and therefore be corrected by the old salts here.



Stick in the gut Ralph of Ohio

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:11 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

| Stick back head into wind, crank speed, full throtle, stick neutral 

and boom, your up . Of course, after trying and proving every "dumb" 

move avaliable, I'm only 4 hours of landing and takeoff, very little 

air time between. I certanly could be wrong, and therefore be 

corrected by the old salts here.

|

| Stick in the gut Ralph of Ohio



Ralph:



I think you are right.



It has been my privilege to fly, a good bit, all models of the Kolb 

line except the original Twinstar and MKII Twinstar.  They all fly, 

very basically, the same way.  I can assure you that prop blast also 

hits the horizontal stabilizers, elevators, and rudder of every model, 

including the two I have never flown.



A little common sense, a good control touch, a lot of time in the 

airplane you are flying to become very, very accustomed to how it will 

behave in most situations, learned by experimenting with taxi and 

flight, and you will become one with the aircraft.  Taking time to 

think about everything you will need to do when the time to do it 

arises, is probably gonna be too late.



Jack B's FF may handle a little different than others.  He has, from 

what he has shared on the Kolb List and his web page, changed control 

surface rigging somewhat from the norm.  Each airplane will have its 

own little character that each pilot must learn intimately to become a 

good pilot of that aircraft.



Go fly, have fun, and learn,



john h

mkIII



PS:  It pays off to be smooth in throttle application of any aircraft 

and any power plant.  Smoothness if the mark of a good pilot.

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

kfackler(at)ameritech.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:19 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

 	  Quote: 	
		   It has been my privilege to fly, a good bit, all models of the Kolb

 line except the original Twinstar and MKII Twinstar.


	


Brother John,



I have a Mark II that is yours to fly should you ever find yourself back up

in this part of the country.



P.S. It handles conventionally.



-Ken Fackler

Kolb Mark II / A722KWF

Rochester MI

jhankin(at)planters.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with

prop wash."



I guess my Firefly is different from others.  Once I tied the tail down by 

the boom at the rear to a hanger door post to run up the engine, and by 

increasing and decreasing the throttle I was able to float the rear of the 

Firefly off the ground.



Jimmy Hankinson

912-863-7384

Firefly 035

JYL (Sylvania)

Pegasus Field (Home)

2000 Feet X 100 Feet- Grass

Rocky Ford, Georgia

Do Not Archive

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Try SPAMfighter for free now!

jindoguy(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 2:50 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

I am not a high time Kolb Flyer, I'm up to about 40 hours, but 30 of that has been doing takeoffs and landings. I now always start my takeoff roll with the stick full forward. I roll the throttle in smoothly, the tail comes up when it is ready and all I have to do is a nice smooth pull back to lift off. I, too was warned about nose over with the adminition, "don't shove the throttle forward too fast, it has enough power to send you ass over tea kettle." Keep in mind that I'm out here on the great grass desert and the wind blows almost constantly, but I haven't seen a lot of difference when the wind is down around 5 mph.  

Works like a charm for me, your results may differ.



On 7/31/06, LEE CREECH <dcreech3(at)hotmail.com (dcreech3(at)hotmail.com)> wrote: [quote]--> Kolb-List message posted by: "LEE CREECH" < dcreech3(at)hotmail.com (dcreech3(at)hotmail.com)>



QUOTE: "But with a Kolb FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with

prop wash."



Interesting. When I was learning to fly my Firestar II (similar layout,

right?) I was taught that I should have the stick all the way back when I 

open the throttle for takeoff, to avoid a possible nose-over.  Obviously the

idea is to generate some compensatory down force on the tail.  Do you think

that's all irrelevant, then?  I'm not sure I want to try it with the stick 

forward just to see what happens.  Why don't you do that, and report back

how it goes?  



Lee



 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net) >

Reply-To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

To: kolb-list(at)matronics.com (kolb-list(at)matronics.com)

Subject: Re: Re: Control positioning during ground handling 

Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2006 08:28:58 -0500



--> Kolb-List message posted by: "Jack B. Hart" <jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net (jbhart(at)onlyinternet.net)>



Kolbers, 



I did not mean to question how you have been trained to taxi in windy

conditions, or how others taxi their specific aircraft.  But with a Kolb

FireFly you can not load the tail up or down with prop wash.  If the 

horizontal stabilizer was placed higher on the tail so it was in prop wash,

I would change my stick positions. I have always admired the Mini-Max in

the

way they could max out the throttle on the beginning of the take off.  The 

tail is up immediately with good control and no fear of putting it on it's

nose.  But I picked the FireFly for the up front view, a pusher, with a

high

thrust line, and I have to accept that I will never be able to launch it 

like a Mini-Max.



Not picking on a J-3 Cub but only using it as an example and moving it

closer to a Kolb design, how would ground handling change if you raised the

thrust line two feet and moved the gear back a foot and one half? 



As far as not taxiing or flying the FireFly in twenty mph winds, some times

we do not have much choice.  Conditions change when you are out and about.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN 








	


_________________________________________________________________

Don't just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! 

takes on a whole new meaning

when you live at the airport.

jbhart(at)onlyinternet.ne
Guest

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 10:50 am Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

At 04:10 PM 7/31/06 -0500, you wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  



  I can assure you that prop blast also 

hits the horizontal stabilizers, elevators, and rudder of every model, 

including the two I have never flown.




	


John & Kolbers,



If this is so, then why there so little pitch control after you open the 

throttle for takeoff?  Why did Homer put that little hoop under the nose?  Why do some 

even move their landing gear forward?  If this was true, I should be able to 

hold the stick back against the stop and be able to advance the throttle 

aggressively and not put the FireFly on it's nose.



Jack B. Hart FF004

Winchester, IN

John Hauck

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 4639
Location: Titus, Alabama (hauck's holler)

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:19 pm Post subject: Control positioning during ground handling

If this was true, I should be able to

| hold the stick back against the stop and be able to advance the 

throttle

| aggressively and not put the FireFly on it's nose.

|

| Jack B. Hart FF004



Jack B:



This subject is getting beaten to death.



Aggressive throttle control doesn't have any place in aircraft, rotary 

or fixed, real ones or UL's.



Pilot technique has a lot to do with how well a Kolb behaves.



Undoubtedly, you have your way of flying and I have mine.  I'm not 

telling anyone how to fly their airplane.  If that is the impression I 

gave in previous posts, I was wrong.  I like to share how I do it, if 

it works well.  If it doesn't, I like to share that too, hopefully 

someone will learn from it.  If not, no sweat.



john h

mkIII

_________________
John Hauck
MKIII/912ULS
hauck's holler
Titus, Alabama

Ralph Hoover

Joined: 09 Jan 2006
Posts: 206
Location: Central Ohio

Posted: Tue Aug 01, 2006 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Control positioning during ground handling

John, and others;



I am  amazed, truly amazed that there can be two different extremes that provide the same response from the plane. And as you stated in a previous post, John, "They all fly, very basically, the same way. I can assure you that prop blast also hits the horizontal stabilizers, elevators, and rudder of every model, including the two I have never flown."



All pushers, all Kolbs, all tail draggers and with the little difference of side by side, front-back, single, as well as engine size and prop size, they all have the same dynamics of existing physical laws to follow.



Forward stick, all the way, back stick, all the way....absolutely amazes me that both can possibly work.  This single piece of discussion  exceeds any piece of work that I have read  (and I have read each and every one from the beginning). How can that be possible?



The ONLY way that both methods can co-exist is if : 

1). Everyone is talking about something completely different but the same in all outward appearances, like downwind taxiing verses lifting off (going into the wind). Now when I taxi down to position myself for turning around and taking off, and there IS wind, I still am full back stick. AMAZING!

2). Controls are backward, you know â€œlefty-loosie,righty-tighty, or mirror image as in being levitated and looking back at yourself from without rather than within. AMAZING!

Did I say AMAZING here in Ohio Ralph?

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