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pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

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tomhanaway

Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 4:38 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Empennage ordered but not here yet so don't have instructions.  Are most drilled holes two-part.  I.e., 1/8" pilot(0.125) then #30(0.1285)final and 3/32pilot(0.0938) then #40(0.0980)final.



The reason I ask is deciding which burraway drill bits to get.  Will the #30 and 40 size do?  Or is most of the deburring done off the smaller pilot hole, if both pilot and final are necessary?



I'd obviously prefer to buy only two bits if possible rather than four.

Separately, I do follow the ebay sales but other than the .093, most of the sizes are larger than needed for the Van's kit.



Empennage should arrive early next week.

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hanaway

Todd.Stovall(at)pentagon.
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 5:10 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Tom,

On the RV-10 VS you pre-drill the 1/8 holes on the rear spar with a 1/8 bit

first and then final drill with a #30.  For the 3/32 holes, Van's has you go

straight to final drill with a #40, no pre-drilling identified that I have

seen yet.



Todd

#40631

RV-10 Emp



Do Not Archive



--

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:26 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

#30 and #40 Cogsdill are all you need.  Make sure you have the standard

deburring tools from an Avery or Cleveland.  Many places you'll want those

over the Cogsdill.  



John Jessen

  #328 (riveting tailcone) 



--

dav1111(at)cox.net
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 6:44 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

In addition to drill bits (buy at least 5 of each) you should also get #30 

and #40 reamers.  The reamers are my first choice in doing the initial/final 

drilling of pre-punched holes.  I have never used the burraway drill bits 

but didn't find a real problem with deburring after using a reamer.



In addition, instead of "match drilling" pre-punched holes I would advise 

first hitting all of the pre-punched holes with either the #30 or #40 reamer 

and debur before putting them together the first time.  I found on the VS 

that it was real difficult to cleco the parts together but after using the 

reamers and deburring first all my parts cleco'd together much easier.   By 

the time I reached the HS I had stopped match drilling anything that was 

pre-punched and didn't do it again all the way to the end of my build.



Not only does it save loads of time but I found the holes lined up much 

better and I had fewer drilling errors than I was having with match drilling 

the pre-punched holes, many of which the tabs would push down with the drill 

bit and I couldn't tell that they had been mis-drilled until after I took 

them apart for deburr.



I did find on occasion when I was riveting that I had to go back and run the 

reamer through the cleco'd holes sometimes to get the rivet to set like I 

wanted it to set.  Using the reamer at the point in drilling I didn't feel 

any significant areas around the holes that caused me any deburring concerns 

since the holes had already been reamed, de-burred, countersunk and the 

slight trim caused by another run of the reamer didn't seem to be a problem.



Good luck with your project, I had a wonderful time doing my 33 month build 

(even had three major surgeries during such 33 months and lost about 8 

months of build time).



Russ Daves

N710RV - Flying RV-10

See everyone at LOE 2006 this weekend

---

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:14 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Tom,



If I were you I would order the drill bits from Cleaveland or Avery, the 

entire set of standard fractional bits and the entire set of numbered bits. 

The inherent problem is that you will need a bit which you do not have and 

then it stops the entire build process until the bit arrives in the mail.  

This can happen a lot of times. It gets frustrating. You get the point!



Also, when it comes to drilling out rivets a good set of undersize bits is 

wonderful to have to prevent the chance of adverse hole enlargement.



Get used to biting the bullet, the correct tools make all the difference.



John G. 409



Do Not Archive

 	  Quote: 	
		  From: "tomhanaway" <tomhanaway(at)adelphia.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

Subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 05:38:40 -0700






Empennage ordered but not here yet so don't have instructions.  Are most 

drilled holes two-part.  I.e., 1/8" pilot(0.125) then #30(0.1285)final and 

3/32pilot(0.0938) then #40(0.0980)final.



The reason I ask is deciding which burraway drill bits to get.  Will the 

#30 and 40 size do?  Or is most of the deburring done off the smaller pilot 

hole, if both pilot and final are necessary?



I'd obviously prefer to buy only two bits if possible rather than four.

Separately, I do follow the ebay sales but other than the .093, most of the 

sizes are larger than needed for the Van's kit.



Empennage should arrive early next week.

Thanks in advance,

Tom Hanaway





Read this topic online here:



http://forums.matronics.com/viewtopic.php?p=66903#66903

indigoonlatigo(at)msn.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 7:48 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Russel,



Having almost finished the entire tail assembly, as I am now doing 

fiberglass work, with the new experience I have gained, I have no idea of 

what you are advocating. I am not trying to be disrespectful, just would 

like to understand what it is you are saying.



"In addition, instead of "match drilling" pre-punched holes I would advise 

first hitting all of the pre-punched holes with either the #30 or #40 reamer 

and debur before putting them together the first time.  I found on the VS 

that it was real difficult to cleco the parts together but after using the 

reamers and deburring first all my parts cleco'd together much easier.   By 

the time I reached the HS I had stopped match drilling anything that was 

pre-punched and didn't do it again all the way to the end of my build."



"Not only does it save loads of time but I found the holes lined up much 

better and I had fewer drilling errors than I was having with match drilling 

the pre-punched holes, many of which the tabs would push down with the drill 

bit and I couldn't tell that they had been mis-drilled until after I took 

them apart for deburr. In addition, instead of "match drilling" pre-punched 

holes I would advise first hitting all of the pre-punched holes with either 

the #30 or #40 reamer and debur before putting them together the first time. 

  I found on the VS that it was real difficult to cleco the parts together 

but after using the reamers and deburring first all my parts cleco'd 

together much easier.   By the time I reached the HS I had stopped match 

drilling anything that was pre-punched and didn't do it again all the way to 

the end of my build."



My thoughts.....The only place I had difficulty getting prepunched holes to 

line up was during the assembly of the rudder, as the control horn of the 

rudder had a slightly larger bend raduis than it should have.  This pushed 

the rudder spar away from the skin holes. It all worked out, especially when 

you use an ice pick to line up holes before cecoing them.  The ice pick is 

one of those "Must Have Tools" Use a lot of clecoes during the drilling, the 

more the merrier.



JOhn G. 409





[quote]From: "Russell Daves" <dav1111(at)cox.net>

Reply-To: rv10-list(at)matronics.com

To: <rv10-list(at)matronics.com>

Subject: Re: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 09:43:28 -0500






In addition to drill bits (buy at least 5 of each) you should also get #30 

and #40 reamers.  The reamers are my first choice in doing the 

initial/final drilling of pre-punched holes.  I have never used the 

burraway drill bits but didn't find a real problem with deburring after 

using a reamer.



In addition, instead of "match drilling" pre-punched holes I would advise 

first hitting all of the pre-punched holes with either the #30 or #40 

reamer and debur before putting them together the first time.  I found on 

the VS that it was real difficult to cleco the parts together but after 

using the reamers and deburring first all my parts cleco'd together much 

easier.   By the time I reached the HS I had stopped match drilling 

anything that was pre-punched and didn't do it again all the way to the end 

of my build.



Not only does it save loads of time but I found the holes lined up much 

better and I had fewer drilling errors than I was having with match 

drilling the pre-punched holes, many of which the tabs would push down with 

the drill bit and I couldn't tell that they had been mis-drilled until 

after I took them apart for deburr.



I did find on occasion when I was riveting that I had to go back and run 

the reamer through the cleco'd holes sometimes to get the rivet to set like 

I wanted it to set.  Using the reamer at the point in drilling I didn't 

feel any significant areas around the holes that caused me any deburring 

concerns since the holes had already been reamed, de-burred, countersunk 

and the slight trim caused by another run of the reamer didn't seem to be a 

problem.



Good luck with your project, I had a wonderful time doing my 33 month build 

(even had three major surgeries during such 33 months and lost about 8 

months of build time).



Russ Daves

N710RV - Flying RV-10

See everyone at LOE 2006 this weekend

---

tomhanaway

Joined: 12 Aug 2006
Posts: 111
Location: Murphy, NC

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:07 am Post subject: Re: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Just to clarify.  I do have a complete tool kit coming from Cleveland with some optionals coming from Avery, Brown and Planetool.



As to the #30 and #40 debur, Cogsdill doesn't make them.  They do have the 1/8 and 3/32" bits

E-z burr has a #40 debur size.



I guess my question should have been clearer.  Do the 1/8 and 3/32 deburr sizes work effectively with the slightly larger #30 and #40 holes.



Thanks,

Tom Hanaway

Rick S.

Joined: 12 Feb 2006
Posts: 347
Location: Las Vegas

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 9:09 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

John,



In a nutshell this came up about a year ago. What some builders were doing including my friend & fellow builder here in Las Vegas was to predrill (ream), deburr and dimple then final assemble before ever clecoing together an assembly. In theory it sounds good and it seemed to work well for Russ & Bob. I found it much easier to understand the correct way things went together by clecoing, drilling then disassemble deburr...the conventional way most build. It has drawbacks.....the fuselage has several areas that need holes drilled in assembly and if you miss them after you have it partially riveted then you may find yourself drilling out some rivets or trying to complete what was a simple step now almost impossible to do because it is assembled. I always considered the cleco then drill the equivalent of "measuring twice and cutting once" I didn't really find it all that much faster and I know all my holes have been properly deburred and I didn't have any problems by having to go

  backwards and disassemble anything.



Rick S.

40185



--

_________________
Rick S.
RV-10
40185

jjessen

Joined: 22 Apr 2006
Posts: 285
Location: OR

Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2006 11:22 am Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Yes.  



John J



do not archive 



--

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 3:52 pm Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Do you have a good source for #30 &40 reamers?



Russell Daves wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 In addition to drill bits (buy at least 5 of each) you should also get 

 #30 and #40 reamers.  The reamers are my first choice in doing the 

 initial/final drilling of pre-punched holes.  I have never used the 

 burraway drill bits but didn't find a real problem with deburring 

 after using a reamer.



 In addition, instead of "match drilling" pre-punched holes I would 

 advise first hitting all of the pre-punched holes with either the #30 

 or #40 reamer and debur before putting them together the first time.  

 I found on the VS that it was real difficult to cleco the parts 

 together but after using the reamers and deburring first all my parts 

 cleco'd together much easier.   By the time I reached the HS I had 

 stopped match drilling anything that was pre-punched and didn't do it 

 again all the way to the end of my build.

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

Albert Gardner

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 455
Location: Yuma, AZ

Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2006 8:15 pm Post subject: pilot vs. final holes and cogsdill

Avery for one, probably all the tool outfits have them. I like the reamers

better than the drills because the little to no deburring after using one on

a pilot hole. You will also have some use for the 12" #40 and #30 drill

bits. I bought a 3/16" and 1/4" reamer and use them to finish up those holes

rather than the number bits called for to eliminate as much slop as possible

when fitting parts.

Albert Gardner

Yuma, AZ

40-422 Finish kit



--

_________________
RV-9A N872RV
RV-10 N991RV

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