Matronics Email Lists :: View topic - Elevator counterbalance weight

Matronics Email Lists
Web Forum Interface to the Matronics Email Lists

Get Email Distribution Too! FAQ Search Memberlist Usergroups Register

Profile Log in to check your private messages Log in

Elevator counterbalance weight
Goto page Previous 1, 2

Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List

View previous topic :: View next topic

Author Message

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Vans does have a spec for elevator  balance.  It can be found in their Final Inspection and Flight Test  Document on Page 2.  For the -10 it is 37.5 in/lbs Trailing Edge  Heavy.  The factory can tell you how to rig the appropriate test  equipment...

  

 John Hasbrouck

 #40264

    [quote][b]

n8vim(at)arrl.net
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 10:46 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

> Sometimes ride passenger in those who didn’t cause a love RV-10s and 

think the world of those guys and gals who are done building



Lay off the sauce before e-mailing! My head hurts from reading that! Is 

that English?



do not archive

John W. Cox wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		  

 Count me in. Wouldn’t pilot one that hasn’t been. Sometimes ride 

 passenger in those who didn’t cause a love RV-10s and think the world 

 of those guys and gals who are done building. Given the warning by 

 VANS about flutter and VNE limits, it sounds pretty important doesn’t it?



 */John Cox/*

 */ #40600/*



 ------------------------------------------------------------------------



 *From:* owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com 

 [mailto:owner-rv10-list-server(at)matronics.com] *On Behalf Of 

 *ddddsp1(at)juno.com

 *Sent:* Sunday, January 21, 2007 9:50 PM

 *To:* rv10-list(at)matronics.com

 *Subject:* RE: Elevator counterbalance weight



 So how many people are having an A&P BALANCE all the control surfaces 

 after completing the plane and painting it?



 All certified aircraft must have the control surfaces balanced after 

 painting?



 Dean 40449



 ________________________________________________________________________

 Interested in getting caught up on today's news?

 Click here to checkout USA TODAY Headlines. 

 <http://track.juno.com/s/lc?s=198954&u=http://www.usatoday.com/news/front.htm?csp 4>



 * *

 * *

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

 **

 *http://www.matronics.com/Navigator?RV10-List*

 **

 **

 **

 *http://forums.matronics.com*

 **

 * *

 *

 *

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Is that not one for the archives? 



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

--

toaster73(at)earthlink.ne
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:17 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

For EAA online members this link may provide  helpful knowledge too.

 -Chris Lucas

 #40072 slow build... tailcone attach

  

  

 <http://members.eaa.org/home/homebuilders/building/controls/Control%20Surface%20Balancing%20in%20Homebuilts.html>

 [quote]   ---

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight

 	  jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com wrote: 	
		  Vans does have a spec for elevator  balance.  It can be found in their Final Inspection and Flight Test  Document on Page 2.  For the -10 it is 37.5 in/lbs Trailing Edge  Heavy.  The factory can tell you how to rig the appropriate test  equipment...

  

 John Hasbrouck

 #40264

 	
   

John,

Thank you for filling in some of the specific details.  Your post is the first giving a location in the Vans manual where the balancing is detailed.

Now I wish they would give instructions on how to check your rudder or elevator, not just giving the values. 

Does someone have the instructions detailed on their web site or do we have to go to Vans individually to get the instructions?



Gary

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

Last edited by orchidman on Mon Jan 22, 2007 3:21 pm; edited 1 time in total

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 4:12 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Gary,

    Actually the equipment needed for checking the counterbalances is quite 

simple.  For the elevators you need a rod attached to the elevators 

extending  forward to a point 37.5 inches from the hinge centerline with a 1 

lb weight attached at that point. (  37.5 in/lb ).  This is with both 

elevators attached, the trim in place and the tips on.  If your choose to 

pop rivet the tips on you should probably wait until the final balance is 

done.  ( Didn't tell us that in the plans did they?  I used #4 screws and 

nutplates for mine. )  Adjust counterweights so the elevators rest trailing 

edge low.  Any other builders who want to correct or expand on the above 

procedure please do so.  I'd appreciate constructive advise particularly 

from previous RVers.  BTW.  The old -6 plans called for the builder to melt 

lead ingots into a mould to form the counterweights.  Boy are we spoiled!!



John Hasbrouck

#40264

Kellym

Joined: 10 Jan 2006
Posts: 1706
Location: Sun Lakes AZ

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 7:40 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Thanks.  Looks like I am going to first start helping an A&P friend 

finish an RV-6 that he bought from an estate. Its in the fuselage stage. 

Should be good intro to how Vans does stuff.

John W. Cox wrote:

[quote] 



 Well Said Kelly.



 John Cox

 #40600



 --

_________________
Kelly McMullen
A&P/IA, EAA Tech Counselor # 5286
KCHD

jesse(at)saintaviation.co
Guest

Posted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

This is only hearsay, but Van's has changed a lot of the ways they do things

since the -6.  Enjoy, though.  You will only appreciate the plans and

prepunched holes on the -10 that much more after working on the -6.



Do not archive.



Jesse Saint

Saint Aviation, Inc.

jesse(at)saintaviation.com

www.saintaviation.com

Cell: 352-427-0285

Fax: 815-377-3694

--

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:13 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:

http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm

Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator

aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass

balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.

Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass

balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a

spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to

the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain

level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY

light loads (compared to C150's).

On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	

 The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator

 would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator

 is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.

 Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer

 models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the

 elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while

 some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the

 elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail

 pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.

 On 1/22/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > 

 >

 > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The

 > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the

 > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is

 > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172

 > elevator.

 >

apilot2(at)gmail.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

I'd say we are separated by a common language. I don't consider the

balance horns on  Cessna "tabs" any more than they are on the hundreds

of other aircraft that have them. I consider "tabs" as small strips of

metal riveted to the rear of a control surface. What you describe is

most commonly called a horn or counter balance, not a tab.

 	  Quote: 	
		  From your reference link "Tabs are auxiliary control surfaces placed

at the trailing edges of the primary control surfaces."
	




Which is why I wrote what I did.



On 1/23/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:

 http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm

 Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator

 aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass

 balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.

 Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass

 balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a

 spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to

 the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain

 level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY

 light loads (compared to C150's).



 On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > 

 >

 > The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator

 > would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator

 > is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.

 > Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer

 > models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the

 > elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while

 > some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the

 > elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail

 > pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.

 >

 > On 1/22/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > > 

 > >

 > > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The

 > > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the

 > > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is

 > > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172

 > > elevator.

 > >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

james.k.hovis(at)gmail.co
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 9:06 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

True. Common parlance here is "horn tab" not to be confused with

"control horn"...



On 1/23/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 	  Quote: 	
		   



 I'd say we are separated by a common language. I don't consider the

 balance horns on  Cessna "tabs" any more than they are on the hundreds

 of other aircraft that have them. I consider "tabs" as small strips of

 metal riveted to the rear of a control surface. What you describe is

 most commonly called a horn or counter balance, not a tab.

 >From your reference link "Tabs are auxiliary control surfaces placed

 at the trailing edges of the primary control surfaces."



 Which is why I wrote what I did.



 On 1/23/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > 

 >

 > For a quick explanation of control surfaces see this:

 >

 http://www.centennialofflight.gov/essay/Theories_of_Flight/control/TH28.htm

 > Those tabs forward of the hinge line out on the tips of the elevator

 > aren't there just to provide a convenient place to store the mass

 > balance lead. 172's have leading edge elevator tabs out at the tip.

 > Obviously, Cessna relies on aerodynamic balance rather than mass

 > balance and probably a lower Vne to limit flutter. My old AA1A had a

 > spring balance system on the elevator which centered the elevator to

 > the trim tab setting along with moving tips that provided a certain

 > level of aero balance and hid lead for mass balance resulting in VERY

 > light loads (compared to C150's).

 >

 > On 1/22/07, Kelly McMullen <apilot2(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > > 

 > >

 > > The 172's I've flown(pre 1977) had nothing of the sort. The elevator

 > > would fall to the rear of its own weight. The only tab on the elevator

 > > is the trim tab. But its a little different when Vne is 150 mph.

 > > Mooneys on the other hand, have Vne's of 189mph MIAS and up(most newer

 > > models well over 200kts), and they definitely are balanced with the

 > > elevator tail heavy, with a weight spec specific to the model, while

 > > some models have bungee springs that change the resting point of the

 > > elevator depending on the trim position, because the entire tail

 > > pivots, changing the angle of incidence of the horizontal stab.

 > >

 > > On 1/22/07, James K Hovis <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com> wrote:

 > > > 

 <james.k.hovis(at)gmail.com>

 > > >

 > > > How many C-172's do you see on a ramp with the elevators drooping? The

 > > > elevators themselves are balanced about the hinge-line, but the

 > > > control linkage weights basically "pull down" the elevator. This is

 > > > also one reason there's an aerodynamic balance tab on a C-172

 > > > elevator.

 > > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 > >

 >

 >

 >

 >

 >

orchidman

Joined: 10 Jul 2006
Posts: 277
Location: Oklahoma City - KRCE

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: Elevator counterbalance weight

 	  jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com wrote: 	
		  Gary,

    Actually the equipment needed for checking the counterbalances is quite 

simple.  For the elevators you need a rod attached to the elevators 

extending  forward to a point 37.5 inches from the hinge centerline with a 1 

lb weight attached at that point. (  37.5 in/lb ).  This is with both 

elevators attached, the trim in place and the tips on.

...  Adjust counterweights so the elevators rest trailing 

edge low. 

John Hasbrouck

#40264 	


John,

Thanks.  I have added Vic Syracuses rudder trim so I am going to need to balance the rudder.  So I guess what I need to do is after it is finished, I need to lay the VS and attached Rudder on their side.  Then add a 30.8" rod to the top with a 1 lb weight.  Should the rudder/VS lay flat or should the trailing edge of the rudder droop?  The 30.8" would be measured at a 90 deg angle from the pivit point line.

Is this correct?

Gary

_________________
Gary Blankenbiller
RV10 - # 40674
(N2GB Flying)

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Tue Jan 23, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Gary,

    I'm not sure if the rudder trim affects the balance requirements or not. 

I'd check with Van's tech support, any answer I'd give would be a guess....



John Hasbrouck

deutscht(at)rhwhotels.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 2:16 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

John, how does one compensate for the weight of the rod?



--

jhasbrouck(at)woh.rr.com
Guest

Posted: Wed Jan 24, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: Elevator counterbalance weight

Tom,

   I would guess that the easiest way to compensate for the rod's weight 

would be to have an equal length of it aft of the hinge line.  That would 

cancel out the moment arm of the rod extending forward of the hinge line. 

Stopping by for a chat with my friendly IA this afternoon, will try to clear 

up some questions I have and report back...



John Hasbrouck

#40264

Display posts from previous:

	Matronics Email Lists Forum Index -> RV10-List	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page Previous 1, 2
Page 2 of 2

Jump to:

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You can download files in this forum